Genji and Gohda rushed to get the key for the storehouse once they found it locked, but they couldn't find either key anywhere.

Upon openning the door the surviors spotted the two storehouse keys on the floor near Shannon's corpse.

>>4170
The door was opened using a master key. I'm sure all of the servants have them

If not, then perhaps there is another copy of the storehouse key

>>4170
One of the keys were placed after the discovery of the bodies.

>>4171
A master key can not unlock the storehouse door.

Only 2 keys to the storehouse exist.

>>4172
At the time when all the surivors entered the storehouse the key was already inside before any of the group entered.

>>4173
>At the time when all the surivors entered the storehouse the key was already inside before any of the group entered.
>the key

What about the other key?

>>4173
One or both of the keys entered the room after the storehouse was locked

As to how, perhaps thrown in through a window or hole in the wall/floor/ceiling/ground

>>4174
Both keys to the storehouse were inside when all the suviors decided to search the storehouse.

>>4176
>decided to
It was searched before without everyone deciding. That was when the key was moved/placed. Probably when Genji and Gohda rushed to go find the keys.

>>4175
The window to the storehouse was locked when the surviors arrived.

No key entered through a wall, floor, or ceiling.

>>4177
When the clock struck 6AM, both storehouse keys were already inside the storehouse.

>>4179
When did the group decide to enter the storehouse?
When did they actually enter the storehouse?
And when did Genji and Gohda check the keys?

>>4180
All of those occured after the clock struck 6AM.

>>4181
One way or another it wasn't actually 6PM when the keys were put in the storehouse due to the fact that clock is incorrect.

This "clock" was actually a broken clock found in the storehouse, or a watch on a dead person.

>>4181
The "clock" is wrong, or the "clock" is off because of different time zone, or the "clock" is off due to daylight saving's time

>>4182
*6AM

>>4182
>>4183
Reguardless of the clock. The corpses were not discovered by the surivors until after 6AM, and they keys were already inside the storehouse before 6AM.

The keys did not stay in the storehouse from when the entered to when the survivors discovered them.

>>4186
Once the closed room was created with the keys inside, the keys were not removed.

>>4187
The window was locked by one of the victims.

The keys didn't pass through the window.

>>4188
The window was not locked by one of the victims.

The keys did not pass through the window.

>>4189
Either the door or window has a auto lock.

Not all of the survivors entered at the same time.

The culprit was not hiding in the room.

At 6AM the bodies were not in the storehouse.

You don't need a storehouse key to lock the Storehouse from the outside. If it used a simple lock it could be locked without the use of any key.

>>4190
Neither the door nor the window have an auto-lock.

The survivors entered one after the other.

The culprit was not hiding in the storehouse.

At 6AM the bodies were in the storehouse.

>>4191
Only, one of the two storehouse keys can lock the door to the storehouse.

There is another entrance other then the door and window.

The door of the storehouse was removed and then placed again. Or maybe even another different door was placed.
If that doesn't work either maybe another part of the storehouse building was removed or modified to allow the culprit to escape, for example a window, a wall or the roof.

>>4193
There exists no other entrance nor exit in the storehouse aside from the door and the window.

>>4194
The storehouse door was not removed.

No part of the storehouse was removed.

The key that locked the door did come back to the storeroom using a small underground passage.

>>4196
No key went underground.

There's another storehouse door somewhere, you are refering to it in some reds to mislead us.
Also, can I ask for a picture of the kind of lock than the storehouse door use?

>>4197
The keys didn't pass through the door.

>>4198
There is only 1 storehouse door.

>>4199
I'm afraid I don't understand. Please explain.

>>4201
There is a hole in the door that the keys passed through, or the window for that matter.

>>4202
There is not a hole in the door nor the window.

>>4203
The hole was fixed, or it is part of the door/window so it doesn't count as a "hole".

>>4204
The keys did not pass through a hole in the door nor the window.

Reapeat it: Once the bodies entered the storehouse they didn't leave until they were discovered.

Using Method X the culprit locked the door/window from the inside while they were outside the storehouse.

At 6AM the storehouse wasn't locked.

>>4206
Once the victims entered the storehouse neither they nor their corpses left the storehouse.

And method X would be?

>>4207
A 6AM the storehouse was locked.

Kanon, who is missing, is perhaps an accomplice who locked the door to the storehouse behind the culprit.

>>4208
Well it depends.
Repeat it: When the window and door to the storehouse are locked there is no way for a key from the outside of the storehouse to get inside the storehouse.

If you can't repeat that then it's pretty much solved.

>>4209
Kanon is not an accomplice.
Kanon is dead.

>>4211
There's another accomplice who locked the door behind the culprit

If not, perhaps Someone else locked the door from the inside after the culprit left

>>4210
I refuse.

>>4212
No accomplice assisted the culprit in locking the door.

The padlock was on the outside.

>>4213
Well then.
The culprit locked the door with one of the keys, tied it to some string that was already weaved through onto the other side of the door and out again. So when he pulled it would go into the room and then rip the string. Thus having both keys inside the room.

Or he locked the window using string tied to the lock. One end tied to the lock, one under the door. He pulls, then it locks.

>>4213
The padlock in the only lock on the door
The padlock is set from outside
The padlock can be set from outside without a key so there might not be a closed room here
If the key is needed to lock the padlock, then perhaps the padlock was picked to make it locked (reverse lockpicking)
The padlock is not the same lock that has always been on the door

>>4214
The bottom of the door must be touching the floor for the padlock to be able to lock correctly.

So in otherwords the key wouldn't be able to go into the room with your trick.

The window was not locked with such a trick.

>>4216
;_;
No, it can still be locked with that trick.
The door that is.
Repeat it:"The door was not locked with such a trick."

>>4215
The padlock in the only lock on the door.
The padlock is set from outside.
The padlock can not be set from outside without a key.
The padlock can not be picked.

I can't repeat the last one, since to open the door you would need to remove the padlock from it door after unlocking it. So no I can't say it was always on the door.

>>4217
String has not been used.

>>4219
So you think I'm just going wordplay find the right object huh.

NO OBJECT LIKE STRING HAS BEEN USED.

>>4220
The key entered through a small crack in between the door and the wall/ceiling. Or perhaps the key entered in a crack in the window (whether actually open or perhaps some gap caused by design flaw)

>>4222
So in other words.
When the door is closed, even if the window is open, there is no way for a key to enter the room anywhere ever. Vise versa for the window.

Anyway, if you can fix that up respond to this next one.
The door and or window can be locked when they are not closed.

>>4223
I guess I should have said that better. I was referring to the objects themselves. "When the window is closed there is no space for the key to pass through/around/over the window." etc

"When the door is fully down, there is no space anywhere for a key to fit through/over/under the door."

See here
>>4216

>>4224
You know, if you don't correct that mistake with red it still counts a technical logic error. Since if a window was open it would surly mean that there was a way in, but that red says otherwise.
If you correct it in that way then that means my blue will work.

Additionally the red you linked for the second blue in that post wasn't fully denied since it only covered the door and not the window.

In other words the door would have been locked with a key, then the key entered through the locked window which wasn't closed.

Of course this blue is only possible if that logic error is fixed.

>>4225
When the window is closed there is no space for the key to pass through/around/over/under the window.

When the door is fully down, there is no space anywhere for a key to fit through/over/under/around the door.

It is impossible for the window to be open and locked at the same time.

The key entered the room through something other then one of the entrances, in other words not through the door or window.

Can the door and window be locked from the inside without a key?

Wait...
>A master key can not unlock the storehouse door.
>unlock
Although a Master key cannot unlock the storehouse it can lock it!

>>4227
For something to enter the storehouse it would need to enter through an entrance.

>>4228
A master key can not lock the storehouse.

An accomplice locked the window from the inside after the keys were thrown in through there.

If not, repeat in red! There is no accomplice that aided the culprit in the locking trick!

>>4263
As you wish.

No accomplice aided the culprit in the locking of the storehouse.

The culprit didn't need to enter to the store house in case that is wrong
The victims were murdered when the Storehouse's door was locked.

>>4265
The culprit entered the storehouse.

Although, Yes, that is correct. The victims were killed at a time when the storehouse was locked.

>>4266
So the culprit entered closed the door killed the victims and escaped by the hidden method x you call Magic?

None of the keys were destroyed
No one is pretending to be another

>>4267
I can't repeat either of those two blues.

However I will say. For the culprit to leave the storehouse they would have to use the window, door, or magic.

>>4268
first of all....I will discard use blue the victims were killed when the storehouse's door was open

if that isnt right.....then I will use this blue
The victims were already dead when they entered the storehouse proof of that is the different kind of murders the culprit of course entered in the store house....however he only opened and entered to leave the corpses in certain places after that he closed the storehouse door and left the key where it belonged...

>>4269
When the victims were killed the storehouse door was closed.

That is correct. The victims not killed in the storehouse. They were killed and their corpses carried to the storehouse.

>>4270
The culprit obviously didn't lock himself
and obviously HE Didn't use magic......with this
what remains to be solved?

I think it has been denied before, but just to be sure it's not a minor loophole.
The culprit is not one of victims.
Every corpse found in the storehouse was real, and it was once a living human being, either an Ushiromiya Family member or an Ushiromiya servant.

>>4277
The culprit is alive.
Every corpse found in the storehouse was real, and it was once a living human being, either an Ushiromiya Family member or an Ushiromiya servant.

I'm not a fan of games that go on, and on. And take forever. So I'm making a deadline. Friday next week. You have until then to solve this twilight. If it makes it till then, depends on the mental state of the players, I will either declare you stumped and it will be my win. Or a draw, due to the GM leaving the game.

That is all.

>Only to keys to the storehouse exist
>Refuse to say than no key was destroyed.
At some point in the time, a third key to the storehouse existed, then it was destroyed and only two were left.

>>4280
A key would still be considered a key even if you were to grind it to dust.

So not matter would you do, you can't erase the key's existence. This was decided to avoid the whole wordplay issue with "A key not being a key."

>There exists no other entrance nor exit in the storehouse aside from the door and the window.
At some time there was another entrance in the storehouse, the key entered using it.

>>4282
During this game the only entrances and exits that existed in the storehouse are the door and the window.

At least one of the times you have mentioned 6AM in a red in this thread it wasn't about october 4th of 1986

>>4285
I am not tricking you with a time trick.

This may be silly, but how about this?
The door of the storehouse was locked when the corpses were introduced to the storehouse. There's a method X, to get them inside without using the door or the window.

>>4287
See this post.
>>4229

>>4288
The keys entered through the door! The padlock on the outside can be locked by a different key! That is, locking the storehouse and locking the padlock are two different things!

>>4289
Since the only lock on the door is the padlock.
The locking of the door and the locking of the padlock are the same thing.

>It is impossible for the window to be open and locked at the same time.

Does the same apply to the door?

>>4291

See here:
>>4216

>>4292
Just to be safe, please repeat in red.

'While the padlock is locked, it is impossible to move the door up or down.'

While the padlock is locked it is impossible for a person to move the door up or down.

Certainly the door and the window is functioning correctly the culprit didnt alter the way the door and the windows works~

>>4295
I refuse... But.. but that doesn't mean you have anything.

>>4195
Anon said removed or modified.
Although the entrances were not removed they were modified in some way.

>>4297
In what way?

One of the keys wasn't in perfect shape when it was "found". The culprit damaged the key to make it enter the room through some kind of water access.

>>4299
Water access where?

>>4284
>>4229

The key is not a conventional key that we are used to using.

>>4301
the locking system is unrelated to the murders
they key was a normal one, and the door was the one mentioned in the canon games.

>>4301
Yes it is a normal looking key, just like the ones in your picture.

>>4302
The locking is unreleated to the murders.

The key is a normal one, and the door is the same type as in the canon games.

>>4299
That is correct.
One of the keys was in two pieces when it was found.

There is no key.....the culprit after the murders just closed the door without the key...
and the one that "supposedly opened" the storehouse was his accomplice

Blue line: Window
Gray Line: Door
Circle: Kanon's corpse.

The culprit took an object and they used that to to prop the door open slightly when it was locked and closed.

>>4306
Good enough.

The culprit killed the 5 and put their corpses in the storehouse. They then set one of the storehouse keys at the very left side of the door. They knew that the storehouse door was very sightly lopsided so the key would be able to hold the door up, while the culprit could still lock the door. After locking the door, the culprit slid and knocked the door keys into each other, causing both to enter the storehouse. The key that held up the door snapped from the built up strain after it was hit with the other key. The storehouse door then closed when the key was no longer holding it up.

>>4308
Bern and Ozaki solved it in chat.

Erika dug around the pockets of the corpses and she found Kanon and Shannon's master keys. She took them for herself before looking around the storehouse more.

Once Erika was finished everyone went to the parlor in the main mansion. Everyone, aside from Erika, seemed to be in shock. They had just lost a loved one or someone important to them. Natsuhi and Eva couldn't control their tears and were bawling like no tomorrow.

Rudolf and his family since they hadn't lost anyone from their main family, took charge. They tried to calm down everyone, and comfort them.

The servants brought in breakfast and tea for everyone to try and lift everyone's spirits if only a little.

But as time passed the wear started to show on Battler. Rudolf noticing this, suggested to Battler to lay down on the couch in the parlor. Battler refused saying that the Eva and Natsuhi needed the couch more than him at the moment.

Everyone looked worried and uneasy when Battler announced he was going to lay down in the servant's room. But he assured everyone he would be fine, he would lock the door and barricade it so even if they picked the lock they couldn't get in the room.

After Battler had left Erika demanded to go see Kinzo. She snatched up Genji's key to the study and was about to barge in herself when Krauss and Natsuhi volunteered to take her.

Krauss used his key to Kinzo's study to enter the room, and with a soft click the door to the study closed and locked. No one who entered was aware that Eva followed behind them. And she placed a receipt on the door just before it closed.

Hours passed and those in the parlor began to worry about Erika, Natsuhi and Krauss. They decided to go and check up on them.

They pounded on the door, but they not no reply from inside. They decided to break down the door. As they broke down the door Eva watched her receipt fall. The group stepped inside and found the corpses of Natsuhi and Krauss.

Erika emerged from the bedroom area and gasped in shock at the scene.

Erika pulled out and showed that she still had her copy of the study key with her, and just looking at Natsuhi's hand you could see she had the other key.

2nd Twilight
Krauss: No visable wounds.
Natsuhi: No visable wounds.

>>4310
An Empty syringe was used on them
They had a heart attack
They saw something that killed them in an instant
They inhalated the toxic air of Kinzo's study

>>4310
>Rudolf's family took charge
Rudolf family culprit theory

>Kruass has a key to Kinzo's study
Odd, I don't recall him having one in the normal story

Regarding Erika's shock at the deaths, some red would be nice: Krauss and Natsuhi are dead, were murdered by the same thing, and died instantly from whatever killed them

Battler did it. He was following Eva so he knew about the seal. Once Erika, Krauss, and Natsuhi entered the room one of them opened the window for whatever reason. Battler entered through the window while Erika was in the bathroom and then killed Natsuhi and Krauss. He locked the window and then left through the door which locked behind him. He then put the seal back into place.
Make sure to deny the theory and not just the person etc.

If that doesn't work I want to request a simple map. Windows, doors, rooms inside the study, where the bodies lay, etc. Also the status of the windows and doors in red right before they broke down the door. Or at least what the status was the moment the detective checked them. I.e. locked or not?

Actually, speaking of which. Should we assume there is a reliable perspective in this game. It seems that Erika is the detective but we still don't know if we can trust her etc.

>>4310
A method involving string and tape was used to keep the receipt seal in place while the door was opened, so the culprit could get in and out without breaking the seal! As this trick requires cooperation from both sides of the door, either Natsuhi or Krauss simply let the culprit in, so no key is needed for the culprit to enter!

>>4313
An Empty syringe was not used on them
They did not have a heart attack
They did not see something that killed them in an instant
They did not inhalated the toxic air of Kinzo's study.

>>4314
Krauss and Natsuhi are dead, they were murdered by the same thing, and they died instantly from whatever killed them.

>>4316
Battler has not left the servant's room since he entered it.

The door can only be unlocked from either side via one of the two study keys.

Neither Natsuhi, Krauss, or Erika opened one of the windows in study.

>>4317
Neither tape nor a string like object were used.

>>4318
So in other words my theory will still work if
the window was unlocked at least once before this twilight.

I'm assuming you'll give me the status of the windows and doors when the map comes so I'll wait for now.

>>4316
Brown lines: Doors
Blue lines: Windows
Red Circle: Natsuhi's corpse
Yellow Circle: Krauss's corpse.

Just before the door was broken down, the status of the doors and windows are as followed.

All windows are closed and locked.
All doors expect the main door are open.
The main door is closed and locked.

If you are asking if Erika is an accomplice or culprit.
Erika is not the culprit nor an accomplice.

>>4319
Neither Erika, Krauss nor Natsuhi unlocked one of the windows in Kinzo's Study.

>>4320
Well I was more wondering if whatever Erika saw would be considered absolutely true, but after you split here up like that i started to have doubts etc. I also love how you can see the bodies from the bathroom.
Anyway
The window wasn't locked at some point before Erika Krauss and Natsuhi entered, so the culprit just opened it and locked it behind him.

One of the windows or locks on the windows were broken, so the culprit would just open the window and lock it behind him.

Kinzo has a secret passage that the culprit knew about.

>>4322
When Natsuhi, Erika and Krauss entered the study, all the windows were closed and locked.

None of the windows are broken.
None of the locks on the windows are broken.

There is not a secret passage in Kinzo's study.

>>4323
The culprit was already in the room when they entered.

The culprit killed them while outside of the study.

>>4324
When the three of them entered, no one was inside.

How?

The culprit killed them with some sort of gas from outside the study.
You denied gas from Kinzo's study but not outside of it.

>>4326
Natsuhi and Krauss did not die due to gas.

Well then, you said no visible wounds so...
There are in fact wounds under the clothing.

I also suspect internal damage.

It's not much of a theory but I imagine if a real detective was there they'd be able to check the body.

>>4328
I'll just say, yes there are wounds.

The clothing on the corpses are the same clothing they have been wearing for the whole say.

Simply put the clothing wasn't changed after inflicting the wound.

>>4330
*whole day

>>4330
The clothing on Natsuhi and Krauss are the same clothes they have worn all day.

>>4332
I'm assuming that it isn't as simple as we can't see the wound only because they are laying face down right? If we were to look at the body from every angle we still wouldn't see the wound(s).

If that's the case then it's internal or underneath the clothing like I thought.
Whatever caused the death of Natsuhi and Krauss was inflicted when they were in the study. No trap or delayed poison was used.

>>4333
If you looked really carefully you would spot the wound. You might need a magnifying glass though.

>>4334
An insect or animal killed them.

A blowgun was used.

There was a poison trap set up in the room, they went over to it and pricked their fingers or some other part of their body. Thus killing them.

>>4335
Oh damn it.

>>4335
No animals nor inscets are involved.

The culprit did not use a blowgun.

The culprit killed them directly.

insects too.

>>4337
Could you elaborate on what you mean when you say "directly"?

>>4340
The culprit took an action and because of that action, within a matter of seconds the victim died.

Example: Pulled a trigger on a blowgun.

>>4341
Well then a trap was used.
You've been avoiding it for the last two blues and this would still fall under the definition of "directly" if when he activated it while outside of the room it killed them in matter of seconds.

>>4343
And how did the culprit activate such a trap? Please do explain.

>>4344
Devil's Proof.
Unless you can deny a trap was used then this is solved.

>>4345
Fine you asked for it~

A trap is not the thing that killed them.

Perhaps a needle of some sort. I'm sure if a small needle were to strike them in the aorta, the sheer pressure of the blood would cause a larger wound and cause internal bleeding. The small size of the pierce through the dermis and epidermis would keep blood from escaping the body altogether is any sizable amount

>>4346
Your definition of trap?

>>4347
.....
That is correct. The weapon is a needle.

>>4348
Any device or plan for tricking a person or thing into being caught unawares.

One of the victims gave the culprit a chance to kill them by opening the door. In any case the culprit was in the hallway when they killed Natsuhi and Krauss.

>>4349
A single needle strike that resulted in instant death caused by a strike to: the lower brain stem, the heart, a large/important vein/artery, etc.

>>4351
And Eva's seal didn't break because?

>>4352
The needle did not strike the brain/heart/important artery.

>>4353
Busting the door down caused said needle(s) to be projected (perhaps it was on the back of the door or something). This may not be called a trap if someone helping to bust the door down intentionally designed it this way.

I'm pretty sure we all know by now there are many ways to get around that seal.
The door opened at least once during the time Natsuhi, Krauss, and Erika entered, to the time the other group broke down the door.

Oh speaking of which I forgot, poison was on the needle.
You were avoiding that just as much as the trap part.

>>4355
The needle was not attached to the door.

>>4356
Yes.
The needle was coated with poison.

Eva's seal was in the same spot it was in when Eva first placed it.

And the door gets opened without breaking the seal how?

>>4357
lolwut
It's the receipt seal. It's one of the weakest in this setting.
The seal was simple noticed and put back in the exact place it was found.

They were both murdered by the same one person at around the same time by the same weapon.

>>4358
If the seal had been moved at all, Eva would have noticed.

>>4359
They were both murdered by the same one person.

Natsuhi and Krauss died less then a minute apart.

>>4360
Are you sure the seal really matters that much? After all,
The culprit never entered the study when Natsuhi Krauss and Erika were in it.

>>4363
The needle either reached in or was projected into the room. This was perhaps done through the gap between the door and the door frame.

>>4362
That is correct. It doesn't matter much. It did just what a seal should do. Prevent anyone from entering.

During this game the culprit did not enter the study until after Krauss and Natsuhi's deaths.

>>4364
How would that be able to kill Natsuhi and Krauss? Reguardless.

No needle entered the room through the gap in the door and the doorframe.

>>4365
Perfect then. I'll go back to my old theory.
The difference being, The culprit hid inside the study after killing Krauss and Natsuhi

>>4367
The culprit was not hiding in the study when the group broke down the door.

>>4368
After the culprit killed the victims the culprit only entered the room once the door was broken down with the others.

>>4370
That is correct.

During this game the only time the culprit could have entered the study would be after the door was broken down.

Neither Natsuhi Krauss or Erika ever touched a window in the study.

>>4373
Neither Natsuhi, Krauss or Erika ever touched a window in the study.

>>4374
Seconds before/after Natsuhi and or Krauss died one of the entrances was open.

>>4375
Incorrect

Well it's good to see you're not being as cruel as I expected.
The needle was planted into the room before the victims entered, then the culprit caused it to stab the victims using method X.

>>4377
The needle was not in the study when Natsuhi, Erika, and Krauss entered.

The needle entered the room through some place other then the main door and windows.

>>4379
For the needle to enter the room it would need to enter through the main entrance or a window.

The needle can only get into the study when one of the windows or main door is open.

Just making sure, in the map you gave us, all the rooms shown count as Kinzo's study correct?

>>4381
I refuse.

And yes that is correct. All rooms on the map are "Kinzo's Study."

>>4382
The needle is no longer in the room.

>>4383
Correct.

The needle is no longer in the room.

Well then I don't think there is much we can solve here. Unless I'm wrong when I thinkThe culprit used a alternative entrance to push the needle into the room, prick the victims, and then pull it out.

>>4385
Only way for the needle to enter is the main door or one of the windows.

>>4389
Then it exited via a freaking drain or something in the bathroom. How it got in I'll just say Devil's Proof and leave it for later.

>>4394
The needle did not go down the drain.

>>4395
The needle left the room the same way it came into the room.

>>4396
That is correct.

One of the windows were removed.

A hole was made in one of the windows

>>4398
None of the windows were removed.

There is not a hole in any of the windows.

>>4399
There is a hole in the door.

The door was removed in a way to keep the seal in place.

>>4400
My friend says I should give it you so, I declare this twilight solved.

The culprit made a tiny hole in the doorknob. Then they set up a trap to go off and scare Natsuhi and Krauss to make them want to leave the room. They waited for someone to try and grab the knob. When that happened the culprit stabbed the needle through the hole and into the victims hand. Natsuhi didn't understand what happened when Krauss died, so she grabbed the key and tried to leave through the door just as Krauss did, but the culprit stabbed her hand when she grasped the knob.

Second Thread
https://archive.seacats.net/supersecret/res/39.html