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69 No. 69
I wonder if we made a mistake with our approach to playing.
Expand all images
>> No. 70
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70
What mistake do you think we made Bern?
>> No. 71
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71
>>>/supersecret/227
>I said Nanjo isn't the culprit, right? With the wrong culprit there's no motive, and all of the howdunnits involved Nanjo committing the murders.

I think this post explains the problem sufficiently; one red, and our theory falls apart.

What we should have done is answered the "howdunnit" before any other question; that is, it should have been mostly culprit-neutral. Even then, it could have been posted one twilight at a time. Assuming that we correctly solve one twilight, Kinjo may have chosen to reply each time, allowing us to proceed to the next part of the theory with slightly more information than before. In this manner, we could have solved a portion of the "howdunnit" before we even decide on a culprit.

Progress through the twilights would eventually eliminate certain suspects, allowing us to work on the "whodunnit" with a less broad range of choices. "Whydunnit" comes after that.

In short, we don't have to answer all three questions at the same time, nor in the order Kinjo presented them in. We could have had a malleable theory that could change as we gained more information.
>> No. 72
Right now, we should be working to salvage what information we can from Kinjo, with the theory we did present.
>> No. 73
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73
>>71
We found have done it that way, and it would have been better. But I guess we wanted to trust Kinjo. He said he would reply to each point. So we trusted him not to use a cheap trick like our wording choices... What we should have said is 'the culprit' not Nanjo all the time. Which is what we meant, generally speaking...
>> No. 74
Defend to the death etc.

Be careful, though. Unlike the former games, having him not respond to a part of the theory isn't the same as accepting it as truth; we must have him continue to use red.
>> No. 75
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75
So Nanjo wasn't the culprit after all, huh? Well, my thoughts on the subject go pretty much like this:

>>71
In all honestly, I had actually considered something like this very early on, when Kinjo had first explained the rules to us. The reason I dropped this idea so early on though, is because if you look at how Kinjo words the rules, they appear to be almost specifically designed to discourage a strategy like this. He specifically makes it a point to put the words “Three Theories only” in all caps, and immediately afterward proceeds to tell us each theory must explain all three questions. If he had intended to allow, or even encourage such a strategy, this is the absolute worst way to explain the rules, and really feels like a bit of a low blow. If he wanted us to solve it by proposing one piece of a theory at a time, and deny them one by one, well, that’s really not all that different from your typical red/blue truth battle is it? He outright tells us plainly this is not how the game was designed to be played. If it turned out he would have allowed such practices all along, II have to say I’d be more than a little annoyed with him. If we can’t trust the rules of the game, it’s the same as being unable to trust the red truth itself.

Besides that though, even if he did end up allowing us to play the game like that, should we? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying it’s a useless idea or that it wouldn’t work, quite the opposite probably. To me though, squeezing small pieces of information out of him bit by bit like that seems more like exploitation of the system than genuine creativity. We wouldn’t be using our analytical or deductive skills to win, at least not without an enormous handicap. Now, maybe it’ll turn out to be that Kinjo’s answer is so farfetched that only he would have been able to solve it as it’s creator, but If this really is a truly fair and solvable mystery no matter who tackles it, as he suggests it is, it should be possible for us to reason out all three of the questions from nothing but the game itself and formulate the correct answer from there. If we can’t do that in three tries, maybe we don’t deserve to win.

That said, we’ve only used a single guess, and it’s far from the end of the world. We just need to look over things more carefully, pinpoint any inconsistencies we missed, and perhaps look into other approaches when it comes to reasoning things out. The Sherlock Holmes method seems like a particularly strong theme in this game; maybe there’s a way to utilize it that we haven’t thought of yet?
>> No. 76
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76
>>75
The thing that is grating me at the moment is no that we were wrong. (I expected that) It is that Kinjo said he was going to deny all three parts induvidually. Yet he isn't because we tacked our 'who' one as well. The how is still there, and it should be answered. If he doesn't, I'll lose a lot of faith in him since, he said he would answer all parts, and deny them indviduially.
>> No. 77
>>75
With the exception of the save scumming, I think I can agree with having wanted to avoid exploitation. However, I really don't think "Nanjo is not the culprit" is sufficient to deny our efforts all at once. Unless each guess can be denied with human evidence we've overlooked, it may as well be truth; it would merely differ from Kinjo's solution. We have every reason to ask for red that would let us pinpoint the particular solution Kinjo wants from us.

Of course, if he explicitly disallows this type of method, then I'm willing to play differently, but looking at the result of presenting all three parts of the theory at once, I'm somewhat more willing to go a bit further to win.

That Kinjo is responding to our questions in red is reason enough to continue.
>> No. 78
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78
>>76
I guess at the moment I'm wondering exactly how far he's willing to go with the issue of wording.

If for example, I had said, "the culprit killed maria via the secret passageway" in that post, i'd have still expected him to deny it, because in context, that statement still meant only Nanjo could have killed her, because he was the theory's culprit, and only the culprit can kill. If simply dropping the word "Nanjo" from that sentence would have made him respond, I would find that incredibly weak. No matter how I phrased it, I would still essentially be saying Nanjo killed her. Admittedly though, while I expected he'd be stingy with the red, I did expect him to be a bit more generous than this, and I do certainly understand and share your frustration here. All we can do about it is try to word our next blues more carefully, and hope we at least get the culprit right.
>> No. 80
>>77
So it is, I didn't expect him to answer anything at this point, but it seems I was wrong. The fact that he's not outright refusing to respond anymore probably means he at least does understand where we're coming from, and that gives me all the more reason to trust him. As for what you say about alternate truth, that could be true, yes, but it also reminds me a bit of how meta "solves" mysteries. personally, i'd rather he deny us even if our solution was possible than giving us a victory for a technically possible solution. His answering does leave me optimistic though, we can most certainly still do this.
>> No. 81
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81
>>78
However he said induvidually. Which means he has to take them out of context and look at them as if we presented each piece seperately. I trapped him with his own words.

Well now we know some stuff.

Possible culprits:
Krauss
Natsuhi
Jessica
Eva
Hideyoshi
George
Rudolf
Kyrie
Rosa
Maria
Nanjo
>> No. 82
>>81
I'm not sure whether i'd laugh or cry if it actually was Natsuhi all along.
>> No. 83
>>82
Natsuhi was a random choice to show that anyone can be considered suspicious, but...
>> No. 84
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84
>>82
I think I'd smack my head a few times. Since she is someone we all at one point felt she could be the culprit.

So what's our next move?
>> No. 85
>>84
Keep asking stuff about the theory? I want to eventually lead into confirming definitions, too.
>> No. 86
>>83
Well, originally my look at Natsuhi wasn't intended to be random. I spent 3 incredibly long posts explaining why I thought Natushi might be the culprit, with ridiculous Ep5 parallels and all, only to switch to the Nanjo theory. If it turned out we were right the first time, it'd be rather humorous I think.

>>85
Well unfortunately one of the questions I don't think we can get answered without another guess is whether or not it's possible for the shed victims to survive a throat-slitting. If they can't, we can pretty much rule out a faked death entirely.
>> No. 87
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87
>>86
I don't think we can really rule out fake deaths. Kinjo has said the game is cruel, and Jessica or George turning out to be the culprit is kind of easy. And I can't believe that wouldn't regret killing Maria or their parents.. Also how did they leave the main study to kill Maria in the bathroom?
>> No. 88
>>87
...If a culprit doesn't care who dies from a trap set to kill someone, is it still murder?
>> No. 89
>>88
I'd say so, because they still set it with a premeditated plan to kill.
>> No. 90
>>88
Does Maria scream before the shot or after? If it is before, it can't be a trap, or at least not likely.
>> No. 91
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91
How interesting. I wonder if anyone's story isn't full the truth now.
>> No. 92
>>90
We don't know, the game just tells us her scream was heard "around the same time" as the gunshot
>> No. 93
I don't think maria's death being the result of a trap is very likely at this point though, because when Rosa asked Kinjo to confirm

"kills Maria from outside on the ledge, using the secret passageway that Erika discovers. (The how)" earlier, he complied. To me, this wording doesn't seem to suggest the use of a trap at all, and there aren't really any clues that would point to a trap-like mechanism either.
>> No. 94
>>93
Not to mention that the mirror first has to be moved to see the passage, unless the mirror had a hole in it, which Erika would have found, a trap possiblity is kind of gone.
>> No. 95
Hmm.

>Krauss is killed while trying to protect Erika.
This could have been a trap.
>Sets a gun to go off at the first person to reach for the atlas
...Hideyoshi wanted the atlas? Speaking of Hideyoshi, he was fat and old, wasn't he?
>> No. 96
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96
>>95
Some of the traps are just set to go off at the first person, so the culprit obviously didn't care who they really killed. Unless they told Hideyoshi to look at the atlas, or suggested Rudolf and Kyrie go get food.
>> No. 97
>>95
I do believe Hideyoshi did want the atlas, yes. If I remember correctly, upon questioning George,(at least I think it was george) he tells you that Hideyoshi had told him everything was going to be fine(or something like that) once he found a certain book.

And yes, he is most certainly old and fat. Krauss could probably be considered so as well.
>> No. 98
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98
Anyway with the idea of Maria's death being a trap out. We can cross out Rosa from our list. She rushed right to the door.

Natsuhi
Jessica
Eva
George

Just four suspects left, it looks like.
>> No. 99
>>98
Unless of course, it was Nanjo.
>> No. 100
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100
>>95
I'm still a bit concerned by the fact that Shannon is clearly holding a gun in a "ready to fire" position when Erika sees her after Krauss is killed.

We may need to fall back to the "Natsuhi is insane" theory. It seems that Krauss was really trying to protect Erika, so Shannon probably did not shoot him in defense. At the very least, whoever is committing these crimes must have really lost it.

Unless Kanon is the culprit, and he's no longer a servant at the time he went around killing people. That's the kind of loophole thing that I think we want to avoid, though.
>> No. 101
>>100
I'm still wondering why Shannon says that Beatrice is the killer in the servants room...
>> No. 102
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102
>>100
Crap I just realized something... Kinjo said all the characters that are 'servants' are listed on that sheet in the room. Kanon is not on that list. Could it be....
>> No. 103
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103
>>102
Did he say it exactly like that, or just "servants on duty?" Need to be careful here.

I admit, with all the stuff about "Lion can still exist" and "both alive and dead at the time of the game's suspension," I am a bit suspicious of our Yasutrice entity. I don't know if there's enough there yet to put into a theory...
>> No. 104
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104
Well we can scratch Nanjo off as being completely impossible, now at least.

>>100
>>102
No, that would be....so...agh.If it was though, is there any chance they could be different people in this kakera? There is the issue of Kanon being on the victim's list. It's possible that Yasu could command Genji to lie on her behalf, but Rudolph?
>> No. 105
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105
>>104
What if "Kanon" was just lying there pretending to be dead when Rudolph saw him, and then got up and walked away after they left?

Erika never saw Kanon's body. No autopsy, either.

Though you'll also have to remind me. Wasn't everyone accounted for when Maria was killed?
>> No. 106
>>103
Rosa
"And second, does Nanjo go under the 'Servants can't be the culprit' rule."

Kinjo
"There was a list of servants in the servant room. Was Nanjo on that list?"
>> No. 107
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107
Lots of things fit if Kanon is the culprit

We don't have a body issue. He can easily go and commit all the crimes. Shannon's "Beatrice did it." Makes sense. He wouldn't fell much if any guilt expect for killing Jessica or Shannon most likely. And Krauss's last words fit.

Also:
Kinjo
"You might be closer than you think."

Nanjo not servant, Kanon not servant. Possible?
>> No. 108
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108
>>107
One thing still concerns me though, and that would be Maria's death.

We'd also need a proper motive for him. Unless he was really THAT upset about Shannon proposing to George.

...Did anyone actually strike up a conversation with George and Shannon in the arbor?
>> No. 109
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109
>>108
I did.

They mostly talked about how much they cared about each other. George got mad and asked if Shannon was over Battler, Shannon said she hated him, and was over him.

If you ask if Eva will object George says he has a plan.
>> No. 110
>>105
As in, he was faking his own death temporarily, and before the others could gather everyone together, he high-tailed it back to his room? That could definitely work, but something just feels odd, making it a Kanon/Shannon solution. It feels too expected.
>> No. 111
>>108
What about hatred. Because they won't allow him to get together with Jessica, not matter how they feel about it. Kanon also says that Genji refers to him as furniture and he is the one who first told him that.
>> No. 112
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112
>>110
Well the problem I have with Eva and Natsuhi aside from the corpses is how they got down to the servants room without being seen.

Maybe it is actually George. Shannon would lie if he were the culprit.
>> No. 113
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113
>>110
I know what you mean, about it seeming "too easy." Heck, the way it fits into just about everything almost makes me suspect a trap...

It doesn't seem like Kinjo's style at all, either.
>> No. 114
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114
>>112
...I just can't see George killing Maria, under any circumstance.

And if that was the case, then why did he haul Shannon off and throw her off the cliff at the end? Why not just kill Jessica and Erika and call it a day?
>> No. 115
>>114
I know, and I don't see why Jessica would kill Maria either. She has no motive to kill Maria, expect to maybe make Rosa upset.
>> No. 116
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116
Anyone who even starts to think about Kanon should check, then double check, then ask us, then check again.
>> No. 117


Problem with Kanon, guys?~
>> No. 118
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118
>>117
>> No. 119
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119
Well, I don't know if I helped at all, but I did what I... Did, I guess.
>> No. 120
Alright, I'll try to gather some points I find interesting, so may anyone comment their thoughts about it.

-Why would Rudolf believe his son and his daugther had their hair dyed? Were they not Kyrie decendants?

-Why would Rudolf is not asleep the october 5th in the morning? And nowhere to be seen.

-Why would they pretend Kanon body was inside of the shed? Or maybe it was for a while? If that's the case, why would Shannon do it? To dissapear Kanon from Jessica?
>> No. 121
I'm tempted to keep pushing with Nanjo or someone disguised as him. Kinjo did... imply... we were close.

By forcing us into a new theory with a time limit, he may be hinting that Nanjo-culprit isn't too far from the truth.
>> No. 122
>>121
I get the same feeling, but I really can't articulate anything that would help us make any further progress.
>> No. 123
The time thing was something he already had planned, it doesn't concern if the theory was good or bad.
From Kinjo comment I believe the secret to fake your dead is something similar to the kinzo corpse trick.
>> No. 124
Hmmm
>somebody believes yasu knows where the gold is
Well, that helps for a whydunnit. But if the culprit didn't left the letter, then who could have done it?
>> No. 125
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125
This time limit is somewhat problematic for me, as right now I feel quite tired and not much for thinking, and tomorrow I'm likely to be occupied for much of the day, particularly around the time the limit will expire.

Nevertheless, these are my thoughts. I think we should discover WHY Kanon was reported as dead for the first twilight. This seems important to me. Surely Shannon wasn't just faking death for the heck of it, and later Erika can't find Kanon's corpse. This should mean something.

Completely random: I was looking for clues that possibly Yasu had a twin brother or something in this kakera, but couldn't find any. It would definitely violate Van Dine's 20th if true, though.
>> No. 126
Kinjo considers using Kanon as the culprit is a cheap thing.
So let's try to solve it without involving him too much.
Why would the adults include kanon there? If shannon played dead to make "kanon" die, then How did she know about the murders?
>> No. 127
Could someone post a screenshot of the letter as reflected in the TIPS?
>> No. 128
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128
>> No. 130
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130
>>126
If not Kanon (or another personality of Yasu), then I don't have too many other ideas. Natsuhi is about the only other one that makes sense to me right now, and I'm not sure how to explain her body double.

I'll think on this more and try to get SOMETHING more in-depth posted tomorrow before I have to leave (provided I'm not blocked in by a snowstorm and/or lose power, either of which is entirely possible given local weather forecasts).
>> No. 131
Also, Kinjo mentioned this needed some basic japanese kwnologement (nothing out of Umineko stuff) and he said "another piece of knowlogement" that he believes only one seacat may know (or at least he is sure).

Should we start checking the by the meaning of Yasu and the epitaph?
>> No. 132
>>130
Don't push yourself too much Ange, it's not healthy.

And as you say, Natsuhi seem more guilty now. She should have know than Shannon was called Yasu in the past.
>> No. 133
>>131
According to Rikaichan, "Yasu" means "cheap".
>> No. 134
>>133
I believe the complete word was "yasuda" from incompetent or something similar.
There's also the reference from "yasu is the culprit" in a nes game, in which the detective yasu is the actual culprit. How being serious, how do this relate?
>> No. 135
>>134
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasuda
>> No. 136
Hmm
Yasu may refer to the following:

* The name for Jesus in some languages including Arabic (Yasū‘ (يَسُوعَ)) and Malayalam (compare to the Hebrew "Yeshua")
>> No. 137
>>136
Praise the name of god.
Gold.
Is this letter implying the location of the gold?
>> No. 138
>>136
So praise God's name... With gold bars?

Leave something of importance at the chapel?
>> No. 139
>>138
You need go to the chappel to get the gold.
Anyways, Kinjo already refuted it, and found interesting the coincidence.
>> No. 140
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140
>>138
I did find a big shiny key in the chapel after breaking in.

Ironically though it didn't seem to have any use other than opening the front door of the chapel.

(And here I was thinking more on the Kanon theory, realizing that Jessica's testimony might be the most important since you have to get an item to hear the whole thing).
>> No. 141
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141
Interesting.

The name Yasu means lots of things as a name depending on the Kanji chosen.

Some that I thought were interesting were.
-Authority
-Gold
-Male
-Sunshine
-Evening
-Answer
-Interest (on money)
-Fertile
-Exist
-Cheap
-Destiny
-Night
-Nurture
-Foster
-Son
>> No. 142
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142
>>141
Didn't it also mean useless, according to Episode 7? Like.. Gold bars are useless, Yasu?
>> No. 143
>>142
err, I mean, gold bars are useless (Cause of Yasu being called useless and that's what the nickname meant or something in Ep 7?)
>> No. 144
>>142
>>143
Of course, now that I actually read the topic since the last few posts, I notice you guys sort of mentioned that already.
>> No. 145
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145
Natsuhi is sounding more and more like the culprit to me. Since Eva finding out who Shannon is, is unlikely.
>> No. 146
Looks like definitions of Yasu aren't really the answer.
>> No. 147
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147
>>146
Well Kinjo says it isn't required. So lets skip the riddle of what the letter says. Let's figure out a way for Eva or Natsuhi to fake their death, or something more relitive to our theory we have to present tomorrow/today.
>> No. 148
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148
Ok what about this.

Kanon and Shannon are the same. And Shannon was inside the shed pretending to be dead, but not as Kanon, as Natsuhi. Genji lies to Rudolf and Erika saying that Kanon is also there. Then Natsuhi, replaced her own body with Kyrie's. And got rid of all the people bodies shortly after.
>> No. 149
>>148
Wouldn't it make more sense for Shannon to pretend to be Kanon, then slip out at some point?
>> No. 150
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150
>>149
Yes, but most likely we need some way for Natsuhi or Eva to survive without a fake corpse.

Maybe it would work better if Kanon and Shannon are seperate people.
>> No. 151
I suck when it comes to Kanji, anyone tried changing them all to it?

Maybe like
(Yasu-kanji)

(Ushiromiya Kinzo-kanji) or something else

(gold, bar, or ingot-kanji)

-

Hmm if some one could list the actual Kanji and not just the translation it might help, since after in the "real" epitaph they had to find the "Shore" and "mouth" at some point.
>> No. 152
>>151
Not sure if it involves such a complex japanese stuff, Kinjo is also a japanese illiterate.
>> No. 153
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153
I see some progress was made with the letter, though i'm not sure of how much use it'll be to us. At the very least, we know that it was being used as blackmail. However, I am curious, Kinjo said in red that "The culprit didn't place the letter". I'm wondering if Kinjo was referring specifically to them placing it with their own body. An accomplice could still obviously have palced it, or it could have been placed through other less-obvious means. I wonder if he'd be willing to say that the culprit had nothing to do with the letter? Probably not, but if so, that would certainly raise some interesting possibilities.

At this point though, more importantly than the letter, I'm concerned about figuring out the problem of Kanon's corpse. Right now, i'm still apprehensive about looking at a Kanon-related culprit theory, because every fiber of my being tells me it's just too easy, and it would be a more than a bit unoriginal to boot. All of that talk about one in a quadrillion, only to have the solution be regular shkanon? Again, it just doesn't feel right.

Looking over the /secret/ thread, i'm actually wondering if the nanjo/kinjo/impostor theory could be the best route to pursue at this time. I find it beyond suspicious that Kinjo refused to flat-out deny Sakutarou's blues, and his consecutive posts after that almost seem to be encouraging us to keep guessing along those lines. If the culprit did turn out to be this mysterious "kinjo" though, I will admit I'd probably have a few problems with it, the first of these being related to Knox's 1st. Since this rule tells us the culprit must be "mentioned" in the first part of the story, I always assumed it meant a name. If just a face really was necessary to satisfy KN1, it would allow for some pretty incredible loopholes; i'm not sure I want to think about the sort of tricks that could be pulled on us if this applied. Besides that even, i'm also not really able to piece any clues together that would point to a solution like this. I can't see a motive, nor can I see any hints that would point to someone named "Kinjo" existing. What's worse, this theory doesn't appear to lend us any explanation as to why the hell Kanon was listed among the dead in the first twilight. If Kinjo is using some sort of naming trick to fool us with the red, well, i'm probably not the person that'll be of the greatest using in solving this; I never did care much for those types of tricks.

If we assume both kanon/nanjo aren't the solution, that pretty much leaves only Natsuhi as a primary suspect in my mind. But like everyone else, I really have no idea how she'd fake her death, unless it's something to the tune of what Rosa said with Shannon and Kyrie.
>> No. 154
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>>153
As I mentioned before, I thought that maybe there could have been a corpse (or even a "corpse") there at the time, but it was removed at some point. Then Kanon was actually killed in some way later on and used in place of somebody else's corpse, such as Kinzo's (he said only a fat old person could be/pretend to be Nanjo, but we can't be sure the same applies to Kinzo).
>> No. 155
>>154
I see, you're assuming kanon and shannon are two different people, then? Who would be your choice of culprit in that case?
>> No. 156
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>>155
Since I died twice in the game and missed a lot of scenes, I don't have a very good idea of what happened. However, if I had to, I'd pin it on either Kinzo, Nanjo, or fake!Battler (He was already introduced, and mentioned in this very episode no less. Though there's no real evidence to support this.) While only a "fat old guy" could function as Nanjo, I'm not going to discount the possibility that Kinzo's corpse was faked somehow. According to what you guys said, even Erika commented that it didn't look as though he had died. So my twisted theory is that Kanon was indeed in the shed at some point, but was removed and then used as Kinzo's corpse. If there's any mention of polydactyl, there may have been extra appendages affixed to him somehow. Did it say anything about his fingers, for instance?

It's kind of ridiculous, yes, but I don't have much to go on.
>> No. 157
>>156
I wouldn't go for battler, it's just to trick you.
>> No. 158
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158
>>153
Kinjo said that picking Kanon would be a 'cheap solution' whatever he means by that. And his mention of Vine dine's 1st says the culprit must be introduced to us on the first day. Introduced must mean they were shown and said there name to Erika.

Another possiblity besides using Shannon to fake the body and then switching to Kyrie. Is body of 20th person, who was hinted at in the story. Erika said "More people than we know might be on this island." However due to Dine and Knox they can't be the culprit, but they can be fake Natsuhi bodies.
>> No. 159
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>>157
I know, I was just throwing that out there.
>> No. 160
>>158
Err.. Knox's 1st.
>> No. 161
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>>160
Fake!Battler again?
>> No. 162
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162
Remember, according to Knox disguises can't be used "without clues."
>> No. 163
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>>162
Yeah, but what about a corpse disquesd as a different corpse? Are corpses people?
>> No. 164
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>>162
Yeah, that's the tricky part right there. Is there any evidence anybody was using a disguise at any point in the story? Or are there items that might be used to manufacture such a disguise? (Like, I dunno, a duct tape corset?)
>> No. 165
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>>164
What about his for clues of a disquese that someone faked their death. "The faces were destroied, so only clothes could tell." "Kanon's strange dissapearence suggests something is wrong with the 1st twilight." And "Kyrie's make-up kit."
>> No. 166
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>>163
I think it would be pretty much a violation of the spirit of the rule to have a corpse dressed as someone else without even a single clue.

It may not be strictly forbidden, but both Knox and Van Dine have rules that deal with this (the dummy figure alibi, disguises need clues). There should be something more concrete.
>> No. 167
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167
Here's something. Reviewing the data, Erika used her theatergoing authority to force Genji to tell her who he saw in the shed.

I think this is important, because of what Kinjo said earlier about the Theatergoing Authority. Someone cannot "lie" intentionally under it, supposedly, they have to report what they honestly believe they saw.

So Genji can't be covering for Kanon.

Furthermore, a point is made that Nanjo is among the first twilight candidates. I believe we can use this. As Ange points out, this does call the truth of the deaths of the first twilight victims into question. Still, the one hurdle we need to overcome is how they did it.

...I don't think it's fake-Battler/Kanon who is the culprit. In the first place, I see a suspicious lack of motive there. In the second, Erika didn't meet Kanon at any point in the story, he was only mentioned. I feel as though Erika definitely met the culprit at the dinner table, with no disguises or mistakes involved.
>> No. 168
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>>167
That means that there had to be at least 5 actual bodies inside; if not 6. If Shannon faked being as Kanon's corpse, then we have 5. I find it suspisous, that Shannon says that Kanon was with her doing chores during the night. I mean he died, so how was he with her. And how Genji says that Kanon was with him inside the servants room. But Kyrie says she talked to Kanon, same with Jessica.
>> No. 169
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>>168
Shannon does say that. However, she also says she went to bed around 2AM and only did chores up to that point, after taking drinks to everyone.

Also, consider that Shannon says she was doing paperwork in the servant's quarters before that--but from Genji's testimony, Kanon was the one in the servant's room with him when they got the call, and he sent Kanon to "do chores."
>> No. 170
Huh. I had the misconception that the culprit had to be alive at the end of the story, but there don't seem to be any rules regarding that. There are, however, a lot of ways that a culprit could die being made impossible (suicide, guilt, accident), so this is probably of no importance.
>> No. 171
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>>169
That makes it sound like Shakannon, but I that means that Shannon was faking as Kanon's corpse, which is just plain weird. So what she just erased the Kanon personailty? Because doesn't the calender in the servants room say the next days who is working, and Shannon is on that list.
>> No. 172
>>170
They have to be alive almost. They can't be killed by someone else, they can't kill themselves, they can't die in an accident, they can't be killed by there own trap (That is suicide)

The only ways I can see for them to die is, natural causes, a natural disaster, or an animal attacking and killing them. (But I think the animal would be discounted as a person)
>> No. 173
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>>172
...Such as a heart attack?
>> No. 174
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>>171
...I admit, the fact that Erika used the Theatergoing Authority to get Genji to say that Kanon was a victim is highly suspect. One way or the other, shouldn't Genji have known about ShKannon? Shouldn't he be responding a bit differently? I honestly don't know what to make of that at this point.
>> No. 175
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>>174
That would mean that Genji either doesn't know. (Which should be impossible, I feel) Or Kanon actually exists, but was killed as mentioned. His body was moved disposed off to maybe create the illusion of Shkannon. I don't know.
>> No. 176
>>174
Well, if Shannon is Kanon, and Shannon really was in the shed when Genji looked into it, dressed as Kanon, it would make sense for Genji to report things as he did. Because the theatergoing authority forces the subject to report things, exactly as they see and believe them, then it would be logical for Genji to say "Kanon" if Kanon had been the active personality at the time, regardless of whether or not Genji knew of Shkanon's existence, I think.
>> No. 177
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177
...Who reported that Kanon was inside the shed anyway? And what's the earliest point you can get inside?
>> No. 178
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>>175
If Kanon does "exist," then to what aim? I can't make him the culprit.

>>176
Right, it's like how we expected it. But then I have to ask: why? Why was Shannon in the shed dressed as Kanon, faking Kanon's death? It seems like she was threatened by the culprit, and the letter confirms this, but why did the culprit think it was important that Kanon died then?

Once again, I can't shake the feeling that this somehow relates to the fact that Lion can exist in this kakera, if Beatrice is denied.
>> No. 179
>>177
Genji says that Kanon was one of the victims. Which is when everyone is gathered in the parlor I believe. Which means that Shannon should also be in the parlor. He can't really lie, if he knows Kanon doesn't exist, for his brain would think logically, I believe and respond with. "I don't know who that was. Since it can't be Kanon."

And the first time you can reach the shed is right after the letter is found.
>> No. 180
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>>178
The 'why' I'm wondering about is why the corpses from the 1st twilight vanish. The 2nd twilight's corpses vanishing is obviously made to cast suspision on Shannon. The only person who saw the bodies, if Erika doesn't go. Maybe the 1st twilight missing bodies is the same, to cast suspision on Kanon?
>> No. 181
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>>179
I know it's a stretch, but what if the culprit gave themselves away by saying he was in there, because they put him there earlier than the rest of the corpses, but somebody, for some reason, removed him from the shed without their noticing? Genji might lie to go along with them or not arouse suspicion or something, I don't know. Point is that guilty knowledge could point to the culprit.
>> No. 182
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182
Here is a thought. Several people mention they don't see Kanon at dinner, yet Kanon is added to the TIPs screen at that point, is he not?

Doesn't that mean Erika did meet him at dinner?
>> No. 183
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183
>>178
What if the reason they want Shannon to fake being 'dead' kanon is because they don't want it to seem like Kanon is possibly out there and a possible culprit. Jessica?
>> No. 184
>>183
Adding onto my above post. What if Kanon actually left Rokkenjima the day before the confrence, would explain why no one saw him. And Shannon faked that conversation with Jessica to try and bring some closure to her, but this caused her to crack. And maybe Krauss found info at the end that proved that Kanon left the island 2 days ago. So that is why he says "Tell Jessica, Kanon can't be the culprit." "Kanon doesn't exist on Rokkenjima anymore"
>> No. 185
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185
I can't help but thinking that maybe money isn't the motive. I mean the adults all agreed to work together. Maybe Hideyoshi suspects that to be the motive which is why he says everything will be fine to George and then looks at the atlas.

And also another thing that I can't help think is that, the culprit really isn't that nasty of a person. The ways of death are pretty nice really, I guess we don't know for sure how the 1st twilight people died, but 2nd twilight poison (quick, painless or not very painful), 5th, shot to the heart, (Quick, painful but short) 6th, shot to the heart. 7th shot the the leg (but with all the other blood loss it just made it so Rosa could die) 8th, gunshot wound to the knee and then eyes gorged (Knee wouldn't kill, so most likely Genji might have been alive while getting his eyes gorged, VERY VERY Painful, I imagine) Genji's death seems the worst and most cruel.
>> No. 186
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186
I'm unlikely to be around at all tomorrow, so let me make sure I get everything out I need to say before then.

Genji, will you be making one of those nice megaposts like you made before for our guess this time?

Are we pretty sure about using Natsuhi as the culprit this time, or are we going in a different direction?
>> No. 187
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187
>>186
But do we have a way for her to fake her death?
>> No. 188
>>186
Honestly, I'm a little bit lost as far as that goes as well. We've raised some interesting questions, and proposed some new ideas, but nothing that I think i'd be able to string together into one cohesive post. If we use Natsuhi, we still don't have a method for her to fake her death with that we all seem to agree upon, nor do we have anything that to me looks like a definite explanation of why Kanon is listed as a shed victim.

At this point i'll admit, i'm rather at a loss for what to do.
>> No. 189
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189
>>188
Personally; I'm right now more in favor of Jessica than Natsuhi for, if Natsuhi was the culprit, why did she do it now? Our motive for her was hatred for Kinzo and his family. Why didn't so commit the murders years ago when Kinzo was still alive, and why is such nicer ways if she hates them so much.
>> No. 190
I don't know if people are still wondering but no matter what you do Erika will never see Kanon alive or dead.
>> No. 192
>>189
If we assume it's Jessica, how do we explain Maria's death?
>> No. 193
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193
>>192
Easy. She left and went on the ledge using the window and then went into the bathroom shot Maria, went back out on the ledge and then carefully crept back into the room through the same window she left before. The text says the ledge connects all rooms. And Jessica is not shown during the part when Maria heads to the bathroom, or during the scene when they rush inside.
>> No. 194
>>193
I...suppose, but are we really supposed to believe nobody would have noticed Jessica mysteriously vanishing from the study? Especially Erika, who was dead set on interrogating them only moments earlier. her losing track of someone in that situation just seems beyond incompetent. Well, if we do go with an Idea like that, feel free to write the post on it. In all honesty, recent events have somewhat killed my enthusiasm for solving this at the present time, and I'm not sure I feel up to writing another extensive, dramatic post like the previous one.
>> No. 195
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195
>>187
>>188
Yes, those are problems, aren't they?

>>189
If you want my perspective, I thought perhaps Natsuhi was trying to raise Yasu as the proper heir. I haven't really mentioned this before though because not everything adds up. It may be more based on hate that Natsuhi may feel for Yasu instead.

I thought that Krauss's decision to divide the wealth would serve as the motive. If not because of the money itself, then the shame it brings to the Ushiromiya name. In any case, the decision to divide the wealth seems crucial to the plot to me, and may factor into the motive of whatever culprit.

Hmmm... I wish I had something more concrete to offer. My apologies.

>>189
...Why would Jessica do it? I can't see her snapping and killing her parents, and everyone else. Not just mentally, but physically, she's lugging the corpses around and hiding them, then popping back up in time for Erika to see her where she'd be expected to be.
>> No. 196
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196
>>194
If you want Genji, I can write the post. I have both an Evil Natsuhi with gun sprite, and a Jessica one. But first we have to decide what we want to go with, plus resolve any problems the theory has.
>> No. 197
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197
>>190
I realize his sprite never appears in front of Erika, but that's not the point. The point is that, at dinner, Erika gets everyone updated in the TIPs who is present, supposedly. Kanon among them.
>> No. 198
(Rosa Here)
>>197
Doesn't Kinzo's also get updated?
>> No. 199
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199
>>198
Yes, but he is marked as dead. ...Actually, he may have appeared in the TIPs even before Erika was introduced.
>> No. 200
(Rosa)
>>199
Nope, he doesn't show up in the Tips until the dinner.
>> No. 201
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201
>>200
Ah. I really need to look at the beginning stages of the game again. I already feel so fatigued tonight, though... I wonder what caused that?

Hmf. I definitely sense a lack of energy as compared to when we were presenting the Nanjo theory. I'm feeling that myself, though I can hardly take any credit for that theory myself (you guys put together that when I wasn't even around). Of course, moping won't help anything, so I'll cut myself off there~

Ugh. At this point I can't think of anyone who even begins to fit other than Natsuhi or someone outside of the people Erika saw throughout the game. I wonder what Kinjo meant when he said we could be "closer than we think."
>> No. 202
(Rosa)
>>201
Shall we go with the Natsuhi uses body of 19th person to fake her death then? We will learn if there is a 19th person, and Natsuhi if the culprit. Without a 19th person I don't see the crime being possible for anyone really besides Jessica or George.
>> No. 203
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203
Kinjo didn't wanted to say how many people is on the island. And from Genji testimony we know something strange happened here.
If Kinzo corpse was preserved this much time, wouldn't be posible for another preserved corpse to be on the island? That's like a hint to me.
>> No. 204
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204
(Rosa)
>>203
So Kanon is actually just a corpse, his body was preserved, and Shannon preteneded to be Natsuhi, or Shannon pretended to be Kanon's body and another body was used for Natsuhi, or both of them are just perseved bodies?
>> No. 205
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205
>>204
Shannon pretending to be natsuhi? Not sure, I had to re-read the game. I might do it.
>> No. 206
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206
(Rosa)
>>205
So did Natsuhi then replace Shannon for Kyrie?
>> No. 207
I'm starting a thread with a few screenshoots with the whydunnit of Natsuhi, if that helps at all.
>> No. 263
Good article, great to find out people taking some sociable obligation.


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