>>8140
Before the murders.

>>8141

Before the murders of the 5th Twilight, no more than 7 people were alive.

Again, I must apologize for my mistakes so far. I hope and appreciate you're bearing with me here...

>>8142
Well, I won't lie, it's pretty annoying, but by experience it's probably as annoying for me as for you. I just hope I'm not stuck where I am right now just because of a mistake on your part.

For now I'm really stuck, need to think a bit. I went head first into a corner when I thought I proved that the culprit faked his death. Damn.

>>8143
No, you should still be able to solve this just fine. I hope.

Let' see... I'll make a list of mistakes and corrections:
13:25 -> Nanjo and Genji are in Kinzo's study instead of Nanjo and Ghoda.
Nanjo died in the 5th Twilight.
The servants were locked in the VIP room and not moved to the servant's room. They stayed in the VIP room until the "takeover".

Hm
>>8119
There's still ways to loophole around this
The culprit disguised himself as someone other than the survivors.

>>8145
The culprit never disguised himself, in any way.

Also, definition of disguise - making any of the characters of the story believe they are another character of the story (when they aren't).

>>8146
The culprit genuinely believed he was another person.
The culprit suffered from a multiple personality disorder.
The culprit took upon the name of another person.

>>8137
If the servants never left the VIP room in the takeover, then it should be impossible for Krauss to lock her inside without breaking the seal. Should she have been locked up in a different room?

>Nobody sneaked into the parlor at 18:00 or before 18:00.

Does this also rule out that the culprit simply walked openly into the parlor and hid there before anyone else arrived?

>>8148
He probably simply replaced the seal after having locked Erika inside I thinK.

>>8149
A seal you can pull off and replace without breaking it is a worthless seal, isn't it? Also, "He acknowledges that there's a possibility that the servants may be the culprits and leaves Erika's previous seal on the servant's room."

>>8147
The culprit does not suffer from multiple personality disorder.
The culprit does have another name.

>>8148
Correct, the seal was simply replaced, as Squitcher said. However - The culprit was not hidden in the parlor during the time of the 5th Twilight.

>>8151
The seal was not disturbed in any way until Krauss placed it there again after putting Erika in the room.

>>8151
Also, I must've worded that incorrectly. I apologize. And again, it's referring to the VIP room.

>>8153
Well. It's obvious then, isn't it ?
The culprit other name is the same as one of the other survivors.

>>8155
At this point, I feel like I've made a lot of mistakes so far (even though none of them affect the actual solution) and that you'll just be pissed at me when I tell it to you, so I'll throw you a bone.

When I say: "The culprit has another name", I'm talking about the culprit's real name. This name does not equal to Erika, Kanon or Genji. This name is irrelevant.

To shorten the chance of misdirection:
None of the servants are the culprit.

There. This might be hand-feeding you, but there's really no other way I could've revealed this without putting you on a wild goose chase and about a million loopholes.

>>8157
I see So like Shannon/Sayo. Except none of the servants are culprits. , of course it may have to do with something like shannon or Kanon aren't servant or whatever.
Or is it the Kinzo thing ? Where someone gains that name.
Well dang, I don't know for now, I feel like I've been searching far away from what I should have been doing. I'll just take a little break for now.

>>8157
>All the other members of the family that have been established to exist in the normal Umineko universe still exist, alive or dead.
>Rosa does not exist.
>None of the deaths are accidents.

Since Rosa doesn't exist, the accident she was responsible for never happened either. In other words, Ushiromiya Beatrice is still alive on the island!

>>8159
Nnnnope.
There exists no extra person on the island.

Definition of "extra person" - a person who is not mentioned in the narrative.
Also, let's say that in this universe:
The Italian Beatrice died without ever having a child.

>>8160
Aww, I liked my Genji + Beatrice accomplice theory. Although it was already denied a few posts ago.

The only way I can see around this is if one of the names actually refers to two people, and one of those people is the culprit. Since the culprit never disguised himself in any way and everyone alive on the island met for lunch, that means everyone is aware that they’re two different people and we just couldn’t tell from the narration. Despite that, they were both mentioned in the narrative, so the 'extra person' rule doesn't eliminate them.

I guess the second person could also be someone who isn't on the island at all, but that would be pretty silly.

Also, definition check: "Death" and all related terms refer to the immediate and permanent physical death of a human body and to no other concept.

>>8161
"Death" and all related terms refer to the immediate and permanent physical death of a human body and to no other concept.

As for your theory about a second person, unless you can incorporate it into a theory, I can't really respond.

>>8162
Sorry, I still didn't figure out that last trick. Even if I pick a culprit, it seems that every red denies their involvement or simply outright states their death.
Maybe it's the "The culprit will be the only one alive at midnight" that's a nasty wordplay.
Anyway, I don't know, I'm too dense there.

>>8163
Well, to be fair, the trick is a lot more nasty then I led you on to believe, eh heh, so I can't really blame you....

I keep coming back to the "multiple gunshots" at the 4th Twilight, especially since Erika wasn't allowed to view the bodies and might be under the impression that both Krauss and Natsuhi were shot. That would have been a great time for Battler to murder the other Battler after letting himself out of the study with his master key. Then he could drag the corpse out during the blackout at the 5th Twilight.

>>8165
Other than Natsuhi and Krauss, nobody else died during the 4th Twilight.

Ok, 13 people died. (red)
At the end, 3 people are alive in the guesthouse. (green)

These 3 can't be the culprit.
Which means, the culprit is still alive, the 4th person (he's just not in the guesthouse)
The 13 victims are dead for sure and can't be the culprit.

I've got some problems with the reds, especially with: Before the murders of the 5th Twilight, no more than 7 people were alive.

But I think Eccaia is right about the "hidden character".

Just gathered some thoughts here, I hope you all don't mind, I still have to make a real theory though...

Here is what I gathered from the 5th twilight.
There's only one blue I have for now :
The peoples in the parlor aren't the seven person we are made to believe.

I've got nothing else, really, kind of a shame.

>>8170
Well I just thought of something in that direction.
One of the seven person ( 4 servants, Battler, Erika and George ) in the parlor has died before 18:00. Thus the culprit can be inside the parlor and there would still be 7 person.

Hmm. We know that at 17:15, people named Shannon, George, Kanon, Nanjo, and Genji were alive in the parlor, and people named Battler and Erika were alive elsewhere. No one left the parlor until 17:20, and afterwards that group collected Battler and Erika. Assuming that everyone moved together between then and 18:00 and no one went missing, there's no room for an 8th person to exist in the group, so the extra person must have one of those 7 names.

Shannon, George, and Kanon are innocent because they were together constantly from the time they locked up Krauss until they found him dead. Also, because of the discrepancy with the number of gunshots at the 4th Twilight, the multiple gunshot sounds were probably from something like a string of firecrackers that was rigged to go off by itself in order to give the culprit an alibi. This is ineffective unless the culprit is with the group in the parlor, so we can probably mark Erika and Battler innocent too. That just leaves Genji and Nanjo, but I’m having trouble narrowing it down from there because I can make a theory with either of them. Say the name of the extra person is X…

0T: Culprit X stole the master key from Kinzo’s corpse while he was in the study at the beginning of the game.
1T: Culprit X just walked into Jessica’s room and committed the murder.
2T: Likewise. Although Servant X was in the VIP room, Culprit X remained free to roam the mansion.
3T: During the blackout, Culprit X entered the VIP room and killed Kumasawa, Gohda, and Servant X. Instead of carefully removing and replacing the door seal, he deliberately broke it, which created the impression that it had been opened from the inside. Then, after committing the murders, he took Servant X’s corpse out of the room and hid it somewhere to make him look like the culprit.
4T: Culprit X was left alone until the gathering in the parlor. He entered Natsuhi’s room and killed her first, then followed Shannon’s group until they locked up Krauss and shot him after they left. Before returning to the parlor, he set up a string of firecrackers on a long fuse so they would go off after he had rejoined the survivors.
5T: Culprit X just killed the victims during the blackout.
6T: Culprit X accompanied the survivors to the guesthouse and killed all of them.

I'm not sure how to nail down the culprit from there without knowing whether the corpse of Nanjo at the 5th Twilight really belonged to the Nanjo who was sitting in the parlor or not. On the other hand, judging from the previous murders, the culprit seems to be interested in framing Servant X, and I think it would be disadvantageous to have the scapegoat’s corpse turn up, so I’m leaning toward Genji. I also thought it was interesting that Shannon’s group didn’t give Genji a gun, implying that he isn't the Genji they work with and trust.

>>8172
Well, we can't be certain for sure that those person were there at 17:15, since we got no red. that's the same thing for the gathering at 18:00.
I realized Battler is probably not the culprit since he was shut in the guest house after the 1st twilight alongside with George.
I think you're overlooking this red :
None of the servants are the culprit.

Well now, gamemaster, TELL ME

>>8173
I'm just saying the culprit has the same name as one of the servants, not that he is a servant himself.

For now, I'm assuming there's no blatant lying in the narration. If DWaM wants to deny my assumptions, he just has to wave his red blade at them~

>>8174
Well, I don't think the names have that much importance, after all
>>8157
The name is irrelevant
And I already went through all the "disguised as another person" theories I could think of.
Well I'm just trying to exploit every loophole I can find.
Let's just wait for DWaM to wave his sword at us.

>>8173
None and the "-non" in Kanon and Shannon's names are homonyms. Obviously the "non" are the culprit refers to Kanon and Shannon being the culprit!

I'm currently on vacation right now and on pretty limited access, so... yeah. Your deductions are very interesting and I'll get around to replying them as soon as I get back (should be about 10 days or so...) Again, my apologies for the inconvenience.

>>8177
Well, enjoy your vacations then !

Well, I'm not back from my vacation, but I decided to use what internet I have and not keep you in wait:

>>8171
I'll make this even sweeter for you:
One of the victims of the 5th Twilight was already dead before 18:00.

>>8172
Where should I start with this one...

The sounds heard from upstairs during the events of the 4th Twilight were most certainly gunshots.
The culprit was in possession of Kinzo's master key before the murders, yes.
(Regarding the 3rd Twilight:) Nobody inside the room is responsible for their death. (By "them", I'm referring to Kumasawa and Ghoda.)
Natsuhi and Krauss were still alive before 17:15.

>>8176
Erm... I'm not sure how to... Uhm... Fine, I'll rephrase it: A servant isn't the culprit. This includes Shannon, Kanon, Genji, Kumasawa, Ghoda and Nanjo.

>>8179
Ah, finally ! Then it's almost the end of this mystery isn't it ? ~
The trick has already been mostly solved, but I guess there's that to add :
The culprit killed one of 4 supposed victims of the 5th twilight before hand. My supposed guess would be Nanjo, but it doesn't really matter.
The culprit got into the parlor (The conundrum with the number has already been solved, no need to mention it again ), and simply killed them in the blackout.

Now, for the culprit identity, my best guess would be that the culprit is Jessica.
Not Ushiromiya Jessica, though, since Ushiromiya Jessica is now dead, the fact that she was the only one whose death was confirmed along with her family name tipped me off, especially when I learned that culprit had another name.
Jessica has another name, another family name, that is, she "killed" or got rid of her other family name at the time of the 1st twilight, maybe by renouncing to the heritage or some shit like that.
She got the key from Kinzo's study or from her father, wherever it was. She had easy access to it, living on the island and whatnot.

So, what do you think of that, DWaM ?

>>8180
Not. Quite.

Jessica is not the culprit. Jessica does not posses any other names. Nor has she thrown away her name or anything of the sort.
Everyone in the parlor who was alive was aware of everyone else in the parlor that was alive. Are you suggesting that they just sat back with Jessica in the parlor for 30 minutes? And before you try to suggest anything, remember:

> The survivors gather in the parlor. Everyone alive on the island is now gathered in the parlor. Shannon, Kanon and George are still armed.

>>8181
Well damn. I was so proud of my Jessica culprit theory. I guess if it isn't her it's probably one of the supposed victim of the 2nd twilight then.

I'm kinda confused by the awareness thing ? Did they actually thought that the person supposed dead was with them ? Weren't they aware of the person supposed dead actually being alive ?

I dunno, but here's some blue for ya :
The survivors weren't aware of the culprit's supposed death in the first place
One or several survivors are the culprits accomplices : they threatened the other survivors so there wouldn't be any conflict ( especially work with the armed person as accomplices and explain the servant's takeover. )
The culprit simply explained his alive status by some lie like he faked his death, the culprit missed a vital spot, etc...

>>8182


I'm... a little confused by your reasoning here, to be honest, but I'll play along, I guess~:

When I said that everyone was aware of each other in the parlor, I meant that in the sense that they found nothing suspicious about other people's presence there (everyone who was supposed to be there, all things considered and seen was there). In other words, if Jessica was the culprit, they would've instantly known she was the culprit. But they didn't and instead felt at ease (considering the 30 minute gap). Also, remember - the culprit never disguised himself.

Now, onto your blues...
The survivors knew and were aware of everyone that was suposed to have been killed up to that point. (Either they saw it for themselves, or were told by someone else, it doesn't really matter.)
There are no accomplices.
The culprit did no such thing. (Let's be frank, if he or she did, he or she would've been suspect no. 1 from then on out.)

>>8187
Well, I'm a little confused myself by this new mystery, after all you kept pulling oddities after another. Not that I complain of course, it makes things more enjoyable, but also make my explanations more confusing ~

Well this is the weirdest thing I have to argue about yet in terms of gameboards.
So basically the parlor members knew that the culprit was supposed to be killed ( Yeah, still going for that theory ) but didn't suspect him when he came back.
It's a pretty confusing scenario, and an unusual for sure.
The culprit presented a fake alibi that made him innocent for the others.
It's all I've got for now.

Oh, let me try this.
Ushiromiya Rosa doesn't exist because she was expelled from the family. Rosa, however does exist.

Sorry for the delayed response, I'm back now.

>>8188
Hmm... Well, that would fall under my previous red: The culprit did no such thing. It sorta refers to the entire scenario, in general.

>>8189
Nope. Rosa does not exist, in any way.

Welcome back, did you have a nice vacation?

>>8179
Re: 3rd twilight, in the room when? You said that the culprit simply entered the VIP room through the door and killed them, so by definition they must have been in the room during the murder. I never said they stuck around afterward.

About the multiple gunshots, try these on for size.
- The culprit missed Krauss the first time he fired his gun, perhaps because of a struggle.
- Krauss obtained a gun from Kyrie and Rudolf's room and fired it at the culprit before being killed.
- The culprit deliberately fired an extra round so that he could suggest to the survivors that the culprit must have committed suicide.
- He could also suggest that Kinzo had been murdered during the 4th Twilight. If this came from Genji or Nanjo, it would sound suspicious to the other one since they both saw the body, but if "Battler" is the culprit, he wouldn't know that the corpse had already been found.

As for the culprit:
- Anyone who wasn't in the parlor and wasn't locked up during the 4th twilight would be a clear suspect to the other survivors, so "Battler" who was supposedly locked in the study is the likely culprit by process of elimination.
- If the culprit was able to make an excuse for what they were doing at the 4th Twilight, then it could be George or Nanjo. For instance, the Nanjo who was "gathered in the parlor" during the 4th twilight was the corpse of servant-Nanjo, while the other non-servant Nanjo was upstairs committing the murders.

>>8191

Well, London is expensive as hell, but, yeah, it was pretty good.

3rd Twilight: The red refers to everyone that was in the room before the actual murders. IIRC, you suggested that someone inside the room was responsible for it, or something similar?

Correct, the culprit's first shot at Krauss missed. Simple as that.

For your Battler theory, I can't really comment on it until you can provide me with an explanation of all the Twilights. Same with the Nanjo theory (primarily because I'm interested in seeing how you can possibly explain what happens after that, keeping in mind there's no extra person on the island...)

>>8192
3rd Twilight: No, I said the culprit tried to make it look that way by breaking the seal when he didn't have to, but he came from outside.

As long you leave that "two people with the same name" extra person loophole open, even if you say "X is dead" or "X is a servant", it won't work~

"Battler" version:
1T: Walked in and killed Jessica.
2T: Walked in and killed the siblings. The other Battler was the one in the guesthouse.
3T: Unlocked the door with the spare master key and killed Kumasawa and Gohda during the blackout. He could also kill the other Battler and hid the corpse in the parlor during this time.
4T: Snuck out of the study to kill Krauss and Natsuhi, then let himself back in with his master key.
5T: Killed the victims during the blackout and then dragged out the corpse of the other Battler.
6T: Went to the guesthouse with the victims and killed them.
The extra Battler could be Asumu's child that was miscarried in the original story.

"Nanjo" version:
1T: Walked in and killed Jessica.
2T: Walked in and killed the siblings. The servant Nanjo was the one locked up in the VIP room.
3T: Unlocked the door with the spare master key and killed Kumasawa, Gohda, and the servant Nanjo during the blackout, then dragged servant Nanjo's corpse away and hid it.
4T: Separated from the group before they went to the parlor (satisfying "no one left the parlor") and killed Krauss and Natsuhi. The Nanjo that was in the parlor was the hidden corpse from the 3rd twilight.
5T: Killed the victims during the blackout and dragged out servant Nanjo's corpse.
6T: Went to the guesthouse with the victims and killed them.
The extra Nanjo could be Nanjo Masayuki from EP4, for instance.

>>8193
Welp, while the Battler theory isn't really close to the solution, you figured out the basic concept, and the "double name" thing would just confuse everyone in the end, I'll just present the solution.

The culprit is the adopted son of Kyrie and Rudolf (therefore *technically* not a true part of the family) who changed his name to Battler (his original name didn't matter), note that this person was not the same person in the Umineko universe in terms of personality or the looks. He didn't need a name double, he had something a lot... loop-hole-y up his sleeve. You see, the Kinzo of this island was suffering from split personality disorder and had two personalities: his own and a personality of Battler. Because they inhibited the same body, they were both part of the family but, more importantly, of the same body. So, "Kinzo" was just as much as Battler as he was Kinzo (in other words, he was both). After his death, "Battler" eventaully came across his body and the Master Key. He then put his plan in motion.
1T: He simply walked in and killed Jessica killed Jessica.
2T: It was Kinzo's body that was in the guesthouse with George (hidden, of course). Of course, because Kinzo was both Battler and Kinzo in this universe, the red wasn't broken. Shortly after, and returned to the guesthouse (but only after Erika checked the seal).
3T: Of course, again, he simply walked in and killed Kumasawa and Ghoda.
4T: Same thing, he simply walked in and killed the two of them.
5T: Again, killed the victims. The body he used was Kinzo's.

I can understand that this is a lame solution (and that there will probably going to be complaints, hell, I wouldn't be surprised if I screwed up somewhere with the reds) but it was fun to play with you all. I promise, if I ever make another game, it won't be as... erm... annoying as this one.

>>8194
Well, I guess you said everything I could have complained about. I have nothing more to say than
Thank you for this game and you better come back with a better one !
The really annoying thing about the multiple names/personality solutions is that they are endless in their way of passing loophole, and as a player it's really hard to find them. At last try dropping clues about it next time !

>>8195
Erm, well, I tried to give it on some occasions, if memory serves me correctly (if I had to guess, I probably made them too vague or something). And yeah, I think I'll make another game, one that won't use loopholes (the irony is, I actually don't like those kinds of games, either...), but until then, I think I'm better off trying to solve one, at the moment.

>>8196
Well, it's usually best to put the clues in the original "story' I think.

If you want to participate in a game, well Lion said he would prepare a new kakera after his last, but it seems he has other things to take care of. I'm personally finally typing my gameboard in. It will be much smaller than what I had originally in mind but at least I'll be able to finish it this way. Don't get your hopes up though, It will take a long time to be done because of my laziness

>>8196
Oh shoot, I was so sure about evil Rosa.

>>8197
Yeah, I also like games that have most or all of the clues in the narrative.

I have a fairly complicated board that will turn up on here sooner or later, I just need to iron out a couple of plot kinks.