>>7708
Kinzo has a body.
Genji has a body.
Shannon has a body.
Kanon has a body.
Gohda has a body.
Kumasawa has a body.

That adds up to six bodies. You just can't see all six bodies at once due to Shkanon.

>>7709
What nonsense. No matter how many owners an item has, that item remains as one. If it weren't so, there would be no need for a witch to make the endless.

Tch. I forgot something. Since I can only quote the original red truth, you could simply throw things like "Kumasawa is a ghost" to get through the red truths. As such, if you make this sort of claim you will need to fulfill Knox's 8th :
It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.

Also, they need to pass the realm of reality and make Shkanon a plausible theory. This is a mystery after all, not anti-fantasy.

>>7709
I think you missed the point.
With the red truth up there, we know that 6 peoples, or bodies, are dead, those 6 are :
Kanon, Shannon, Kumasawa, Kinzo, Genji and Gohda.
Hence, these 6 peoples have bodies, because of the definition of person in red up there.
How can Shkannon exist then ? You even said that Shannon and Kanon each have a body. Doesn't that fundamentally go against Shkannontirice ?

>>7711
No, I got the point. Kanon and Shannon have different bodies, but they each have a body.

You can't say in red that Kanon doesn't have a body. You also can't say that Shannon doesn't have a body. They share the same body.

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

People = Bodies

6 bodies: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

In other words, let me make it even clearer:

6 bodies: the body of Kinzo, the body of Genji, the body of Shannon, the body of Kanon, the body of Gohda, and the body of Kumasawa are dead!

The body of Shannon, Yasu, is dead.
The body of Kanon, Yasu, is dead.
There are no contradictions with this.

The rest of the murders were done by Eva.

>>7710
Oh, and I do see your point, but I'll wait for Squitcher to address that before I write anything up.

>>7712
Do I need to repeat myself? The number of bodies still only adds up to five.

>>7713
And why is that? This game is open for more than just two opponents. I am joining one side, and I expect the other side to deal with my arguments promptly, regardless of my teammates. I am not patient, you see. My arguments do not rest on my teammates, and sometimes they may disagree with them. Our side is defined only as the stance we take on one particular point.

Because it is never truly stated that Yasu is a guy or girl we can assume that when in the female personalities that they use pads or some sort of fake breasts.
Since DID is considered separate personalities completely the female ones have come to consider that part of the disguise an actual part of their own body, and thus count as two separate bodies. One for the female and one for the male.

>>7713
Unfortunately for you, goat-kun is right. The body count would only be 5. You're basically saying that Yasu's bodies count for 2 bodies, or is dead twice, which is silly.

>>7715
I guess this is one way of seeing things. Just bear in mind that I'm the Master here ~

>>7714
>>7715
Okay, I'll go ahead and discuss this, then.

That's right, there are only 5 bodies. But it's also 6 bodies.

Ryu is just doing some crazy wordplay which makes it out to be 6 instead of 5. I'm not endorsing this as a GOOD solution, but it is the solution as I see it.

Meaning that "Kanon's body" and "Shannon's body" are treated as two separate things even though they are essentially the same. It's like 1 + 1 = 2. Yasu's body + Yasu's body = 2 Yasu bodies.

I'm not sure how else to explain it, as it's kind of hard to explain. It's as you said, no matter how many owners an item has, it's still one item. But the trick in the wordplay makes it seem as if there are more, which is a pretty dirty trick in my opinion.

A game? How quaint. Do you have the Japanese corresponding to those red truths?

>>7716
Ridiculous. And most undignified for one others would finger as the witch Beatrice, ruler of Rokkenjima's night.

Shannon does not wear pads.

According to a certain source of questionable honestly, Battler would discover such a charade if he were allowed to touch Shannon's breasts, and so in her close encounter with this fate, Shannon resigned herself to the roulette. If this were so, then why would George, who is described as feeling Shannon's breasts at a point, continue to fall for such a childish trick?

Men can only be satisfied by flesh, and that is all they will ever desire from what they call love. How vulgar and base.

Would you allow this kind of mockery of the red for any other kind of fanciful theory other than the one you purport? It seems to me unnecessary. Everything can be solved with perfect elegance, without ever treating the truth with such frivolity.

Can we get the context of this red? I don't remember it.

Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out.

>>7718
A dirty trick it is. Nonsense it is. So why do pick it up and fling it on the writer? Dirt should remain beneath our feet, unworthy of our notice.

A false solution is being intentionally heralded as truth, in order to pull the wool over the eyes of those who will not think.

Do not start with the premise that this must be true and twist all logic, reason and fact to fit with it.

>>7716
>>7718
How cute, you're basically making the same silly argument ~
I won't accept this answer of course, a body is a body, if a person disguise him/herself and consider the disguise as a body, it still doesn't make it a proper body.
Of course, the definition of body isn't stated in red so you can loophole as you want, but there's this one thing :
What is written in red is the truth
If you're saying that the definition of bodies on an absolute truth scale depends on the mind of a person. Then show me hints. Otherwise it's rejected.

>>7719
Ah, I didn't think of that. Unfortunately I don't speak japanese. If you do have them and can translate them, would you mind backing me up if they can be a source of problem ? Thank you ~

>>7722
The context is Battler's closed room wherein Kanon aided in his escape. It was a challenge to Erika, and a solution to the logic error she trapped him in. Three people - Kanon, Erika and Battler, went in or out of this room. This is confirmed in red to be equivalent to three bodies doing the same. As even a human would reasonably assume.

>>7722
It refers to the moment of the logic error of EP6.

I'm copypasting it :
[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

>>7721
Ah, this is pretty interesting. I think KnownoMore mentioned it in his video, apparently Ryukishi said in an interview that if Battler had touched Shannon's chest, he would have found out that she wore pads.
George is an inexperienced fatass, so it's no surprise he wouldn't find out.
Well it's again Ryukishi screwing with us.

Oh, and please pick usernames, I can't tell apart goats.

それは即ち、３人のことである [Request: 'This refers to three people]
I acknowledge it. It refers to three people: you, Battler, and Kanon.

This is the only relevant piece of the Japanese I have at hand. It would be bothersome to dig up the rest, and most likely not at all contribute to discussion, but I might do it.

Oh, what do we have here?

“私の入室からロジックエラー時まで、私と戦人と嘉音以外に、入退室した者は存在しない” [Request: 'From the time I entered the room to the time of the logic error, Battler, Kanon, and I were the only ones who entered or exited the room.']
認めようぞ。 そなたの入室からロジックエラー時まで、客室を出入りしたのは、そなたと戦人と嘉音のみだ[I acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room to the time of the logic error, you, Battler, and Kanon were the only ones who went in or out of the guest room.]

“それは即ち、３人のことである”。[Request: 'This refers to three people.']
認めようぞ。 そなたと戦人と嘉音で、３人である。 [I acknowledge it. It refers to three people: you, Battler, and Kanon.]

の３人の定義は体の数に等しいと考えていい？ ３体が出入りをしたってことですよね？[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?]
無論だ。 ３人、即ち３体が出入りした。 そなたと嘉音は入ったのみ、戦人は出たのみ。 全ての名は本人以外に名乗れないと赤き真実ですでに語っている。 よって、ヱリカ、戦人、嘉音の名はいずれも、本人にしか名乗れぬのだ。[Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.]

>>7727
>>7728
This is most useful. Is it your own traduction ? It seems awfully close to Witch-Hunt's.
Oh and is the traduction reliable ?

>>7721
A blue for a blue just bounces you know.
In Ep2 Jessica and Shannon are talking about how far George and her have gone, which she reveals that they even stayed in separate rooms.

I forget in which part it describes George touching her breasts, if you can I'd like to find it. Although I'd probably just propose it can be misconstrued in many ways and it could mean any fleshy part.

Besides, the same could be said for a strap to flatten the breasts. ie for Kanon in the case that Yasu is actually a girl.

>>7724
Yeah, gonna be honest here, dont have a well thought out answer for this part due to my short term memory, regardless I'll present a red without thinking it through.

That one at the very end of episode six:
I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!
[......Sorry, but...] Even if you do join us-
There are 17 people.

So human=/people=bodies. One word we think could mean the same thing can be completely different, thus an interpretation of the game master themselves. I'm not going to go as far as say all the red is an interpretation of the gamemaster and therefore fake, but wordplay is an inevitable rot.

>>7728
You know, now that I remember this context. Wasn't this proven with shkanon a long time ago?

各使用人が１本ずつで５本だ[There are five, one for each servant.](master keys)
金蔵、源次、紗音、嘉音、郷田、熊沢の６人は死亡している！[6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!]

A pleasant scene, you know. One of my favorites.

>>7729
It is Witch-Hunt's translation. There is no need to introduce another translation to confuse things. The purpose was only to make available the original text.

>>7726
How ironic, trying to use EP6 red to deny Shkanon on these days.

You know, strongest red evidence of Shkanon is that closed room. Do you know why Erika lost to it? Because she couldn't accept it, or rather, never though of it.
If you want to deny it, first answer that one

>>7730
I think this is an entirely different matter. The word "human" isn't even mentioned in the problem I told. Well it's still an intriguing mystery in itself.

>>7732
I see. I assumed that since some people actually have said that WH's translation did have some faults. Thank you anyway.

>>7733
I have a solution for that. If you would mind properly posting the problem I'll gladly solve it. I'm too tired to search everything tonight.

>>7730
>>7730
>>7731
Naturally, a blue cannot deny a blue. However, in this game we're playing, neither can a red. For I know the other side will twist the red to mean whatever they please, and put the blame on the one who wrote it, not on themselves for interpreting it.

Given the size of the breasts as always depicted and as described as Battler, I fail to see how the real thing could be hidden with a trap. Most painful. The scene in question is the first novel's Curtain-Rise on the Tragedy, towards the end. The anime also features the scene at 10:32 in episode two. Please confirm for yourself.

>>7733
I am fully prepared to offer a simple explanation for that trivial closed room of Battler's, along with settling the meaning of the final red statements that end the duel and destroy Erika.

Shkannontrice assumes (no less than) three personalities: Shannon, Kanon, and Teatrice.

Most, if not all, of the arguments are going to be variations of how the EP6 definition doesn't apply to the EP3 use of the term. Here's my input: considering the context, it seems like the EP6 red was simply being reworded to appease Erika, rather than defining "people" for all instances of the term's usage. In other words, the red is a confirmation of how the word "bodies" could have been used in place of "people" in the preceding red referring to three people. Therefore, no contradictions.

Now then! The final closed room.

Erika has gathered all the people on the island save for the victims of the first twilight in the two adjacent rooms, correct? At this point in time, after exiting one of the rooms herself, she confirms with Battler that their locations are as she believes. And only after this point does she seal the rooms. This takes time. Indeed, the rooms are completely sealed for the remainder of the game once she sealed them, but by the time they were sealed, Kanon had already escaped! This leaves no contradictions. Please confirm for yourselves.

As for the final red which has a fatal effect on Erika, it is foolish to assume its meaning applies to some shuffling of bodies and personalities rather than Erika herself. Erika washed up on the island, dead. The final red tells her that even if she had be found and welcomed as the 18th human on Rokkenjima, she wouldn't increase the head count, due to her fate. Therefore, the fifth and sixth novels, where she is indeed alive, are scenarios that are not reconcilable with the truth. Thus, the piece of Erika is tossed aside.

>>7736
This is actually a theory I can't deny. Though I do dislike the fact that it basically relies on Ryukishi making a continuity error.

But if it's to be accepted, then people also refers to personalities ? It doesn't go that well.

This thread is getting kinda chaotic. It's probably my fault for not having set a specific way for things to go.
Well I'm too tired right now so I can't squat, but tomorrow I'll make it a proper battle, we'll start with EP3 and try to discuss the why who and howdunnit from the 1st to 10th twilight, along with the various mysteries alongside it.
Well I'm going to sleep, I'll make the starting post after I wake up tomorrow. Good night.

>>7736
>voyager posting on /gameboard/


>>7735
>DEEN is proof
Well anyway, in regards to the VN part, I assuming you meant the part near the middle, because afterwards it only talks about the witch.
All George really says is that he gives the ring to Shannon, nothing of the sort implies he did anything sexual let along touch anything part of her besides her hand when putting on the ring.

>>7736
That kind of interpretation would be necessary to this way of seeing things. I remember there was a time where the one red from that skirmish was enough to put to rest any silliness. It was only after a large amount of circumstantial evidence that does not hold under scrutiny that people began to readdress and reinterpret that red, and others like it. That supposed evidence is nothing more than a red herring, the most pervasive and deceptive of in the tale.

>>7740
It seems I got the scene wrong. I meant it was towards the end of "The Legend of the Gold." Where all the cousins are making their way back to the guest house. The same scene is mirrored in the anime, I am only presenting it as an alternative source of the same event.

>>7737
>implying that hasn't been solved

>>7743
Most nostalgic. And utter nonsense, all of it.

We all know who to thank.

>>7744
>>7742
Nostalgic indeed.
Regarding breasts, I can't believe i forgot about that part. Still, the Japanese have some good pads, so some non skin to skin is not guarantee to give her away. Of course that is rather pushing it.

I'd rather go with Yasu is actually a girl, and the whole strap side of the theory regarding fake breasts.

>>7745
Are you aware of Battler's tastes? Given their size in all depictions I can think of, and Battler's lust and admiring of Shannon when he returns after six years, which drives him into an animal state, I think it is safe to say that Shannon's chest cannot be concealed with straps.

As for pads, that same questionable source can be quoted saying that if Battler had felt them, even clothed as they were, it would have been over. Yet he presents her fiancée, George, as experiencing the same contact.

Furthermore, if they were pads, was Shannon progressively upgrading them so that they be noticed by her masters, colleagues, fiancée, and other visitors to the island would not notice? Most amusing, and most unlikely.

>>7746
You never know until you try.
Besides, this is DEEP DID we are taking about.

>>7747
It is. And readers show no respect for any kind of sense when they reconcile the facts, and what is plausible, with the truth as they are told it. The witch's illusion has created an independent legion of goats who serve to safeguard the truth unknowingly.

I believe the solution cannot be found without thinking. And the solution would never be stated plainly, as that same source has supposedly gone on to do multiple times with varying degrees of blatantness. The solution as it is widely regarded does not require thinking. Nobody could read the novel and claim they did not get the impression that this solution was being presented. People rarely discuss the truth anymore, because they consider the matter settled. But if the solution was not something so obvious or so easy, as it has always been held by the author to be, why would this ever be the case?

Only the conclusion the trickster wants you to arrive at is easy. This is a game between you and them, and they aren't going to throw it.

>>7749
For the theory to arise in the first place someone must have thought it was apparent.

If shkanon really isn't the case then what? Solve the true answer and Ryukishi will praise you with a 'rei' like game? He seemed rather set on closing the catbox in the last EP.

There are the people who accept the catbox, accept shkanon, dismiss shkanon, and a mixture of each. Simply because the middle opinion exists, does this make a catbox.

And at this point I forgot how I was going to end this post with something actually meaningful. Something about different views of each side or something, then a subject that actually revolved around the story and not the readers/author topics... whatever.

>>7750
I don't think that he would ever plainly state the answer. The readers may do what they will, but it will have no impact.

If you take his word absolutely, there is no catbox, because any chance of that was destroyed by very direct statements about what the truth is. I believe that contradicts with his mindset towards the game, and so it is only another move meant to deceive his opponent. I recall once he expressed that Erika is not a bad person, but simply misunderstood because she does not pick her words carefully. In installment he released following that statement, where Piece-Erika ruthlessly murders at least six people, and Meta-Erika sets a trap to eternally torment Battler and steal him from his love. Simply misunderstood. It gives precedent to the idea that he is not beyond lying about the true nature of his work in interviews, wouldn't you say?

As for the nature of the catbox itself, I don't think it allows for simultaneous truths. There is one truth, to be sure. But if we were to ever know it with absolute certainty, it would be because we have reached an answer after much deliberation that is sound in the face of all evidence, and does not insult a human's idea of what is and what is not plausible or even possible. It would not be handed to us on a silver platter as has supposedly occurred.

>>7750
I don't think that he would ever plainly state the answer. The readers may do what they will, but it will have no impact.

If you take his word absolutely, there is no catbox, because any chance of that was destroyed by very direct statements about what the truth is. I believe that contradicts with his mindset towards the game, and so it is only another move meant to deceive his opponent. I recall once he expressed that Erika is not a bad person, but simply misunderstood because she does not pick her words carefully. In the installment he released following that statement, Piece-Erika ruthlessly murders at least six people, while Meta-Erika sets a trap to eternally torment Battler and steal him from his love. Simply misunderstood. It gives precedent to the idea that he is not beyond lying about the true nature of his work in interviews, wouldn't you say?

As for the nature of the catbox itself, I don't think it allows for simultaneous truths. There is one truth, to be sure. But if we were to ever know it with absolute certainty, it would be because we have reached an answer after much deliberation that is sound in the face of all evidence, and does not insult a human's idea of what is and what is not plausible or even possible. It would not be handed to us on a silver platter as has supposedly occurred.

>>7751
>>7752
Hmm. Ignore the first post, I was making corrections.

>>7753
Forget the closed room mysteries for a second, and simply read the story. What kind of sense would Chiru make if Shkanon isn't the solution? Beatrice's death in EP5? The Love Trial in EP6? Yasu in EP7? Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon in EP8? There are numerous references to Shkanon in Chiru, so why else would they be there unless that was the truth?

>>7754
To deceive.

>>7755
I bet Ryucakes had a hard time writing Chiru after BT deceased.

>>7755
If this isn't Shkanon, I don't know what is.

>>7757
Of course I have read episode 8. What do you take me for?

Kanon and Shannon are not witches. The three witches who are one are the three generations of Beatrice, each one contributing to the overall legend that forms Beatrice's rules.

Kanon and Shannon are simply called to be lookouts, as is stated. This is intended to evoke the idea of them all being the same, as are many little jabs throughout episode 6, 7 and 8, but it's nothing more than a red herring.

I believe red statements are more important than little deceptions of this nature, and how much the red is twisted to meet a theory, is a measure of its strength. So I cannot forget about the red or the closed rooms, which have always been a major focus, because of tidbits.

>>7759
What about the heart of the story?
Battler said the trick of the closed room in EP6 was rather dirty, but was still allowed by Lambda.

>>7760
I believe I have already solved that room neatly, and in a way which resembles the nature of all other closed rooms in the novel.

The statements regarding the nature of the solution relates to how the human audience, easily fooled, will take the solution. The room was constructed in such a way that one solution was implied while a much more plausible solution was hidden. The one that was implied is beyond ridiculous, but it's what the humans would assume to be the case. And so they would begin to complain that the game was not a mystery at all, that is was barely above fantasy. If they however paid attention and had the love for the author required to trust the sportsmanship behind the red and its consistency, they would be able to see that the solution was beautiful.

>>7761
Oh my, I lost that part. Could you show me your answer again, please?

>>7762
I am referring to the solution I presented in this very thread.

>>7737

>>7763
Oh man, that surely would have sounded funny one or two years ago.
I don't think that works, I don't have around the reds but, they clearly state the names of the people inside of the rooms. The seals only prove they still don't leave.

>>7764
I assure you the explanation is entirely consistent. Erika only seals the rooms after she confirms the locations of everyone. Sealing all rooms instantly is impossible, there would have been a gap in time where someone who was included in the head count could leave their room before it was sealed, so as not to break the seal. There is no red that contradicts this. Please confirm for yourself when you are free to.

Let me post the correct reds of that closed room.

[Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
[It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.
[By the seals on the doors and windows,] the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.
We have confirmed that the seals to the guest room are UNDAMAGED. Since the time Lady Erika confirmed Battler's existence, this closed room has been PRESERVED.

>>7765
>>7768
So yeah, next theory?

>>7768
>[Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
>[It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.
Erika confirms the location of everyone. A pity for her that this information becomes useless with the passage of time.

>[By the seals on the doors and windows,] the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.
This occurs after Erika confirms the location of everyone. So, like the third-rate detective she is, she first confirms their locations and then seals the rooms. She should have done it the other way around. The Eiserne Jungfrau are shown sealing the rooms. Of course, to humans, they do not exist and cannot be counted as part of the solution. It would be up to Erika to seal these rooms after receiving these location confirmations, which provides ample time for someone to escape the cousin's room. Namely, Kanon.

>We have confirmed that the seals to the guest room are UNDAMAGED. Since the time Lady Erika confirmed Battler's existence, this closed room has been PRESERVED.
This refers to the room Battler is trapped inside, not the rooms in the guest house Erika sealed. It is not relevant, as the solution to this room is much simpler. Kanon took Battler's place, and then was killed by Erika, who had already killed five others. In fact, the meta-world depiction of this scene shows her shooting Kanon's hiding place.

>>7770
Sorry, even if your first point was correct: I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.
It would still make Kanon stay on the cousin room, as is it supposed for "him" to be.

>>7771
You will make me lose my patience. How many times must I explain the order in which these statements are made are important? Kanon was indeed in the cousin's room at the time of that statement. But nothing about the red says that he must stay in the cousin's room for all time.

Erika had Battler confirm the locations of everyone, after she had just exited the rooms herself. Then, and only then, does she seal the rooms. She seals the doors and the windows. How much time do you think that took her? What red denies the possibility that someone left after their location was confirmed, but before she managed to seal their room? The fact that the seals on the rooms are not broken at any point is irrelevant. By the time the seals were in place, the trick had already been performed.

Maybe you should not rely on the red alone when you do not have access to the scene in question? Regarding this scenario, I am an expert.

>>7772
Alright, we are still checking that, so I apologize again for the delay. However, even if that joke was possible there's still something important we would need to debate.
If this was the trick, then why didn't Battler escape from the closed room? Lambda talked about it as some kind of terrible torture, yet Battler didn't use such a easy way to escape from the red? Even if he was incompetent he would notice it.

>>7773
Erika's sealing of the rooms was sprung on him, so it is plausible that he wasn't able to think of this solution in time.

After all, I have taken some time to convince you of this solution, and you are still not convinced.

I don't think it is an issue.

>>7774
I will accept he was on a strong condition of stress, but exactly because of that he would be able to see, or at least would have tried it. That's it if it was the the answer.

On the other side, Battler couldn't use that answer, of respect of the Witch, of course.

>>7775
I disagree. I don't think Battler even considered those two rooms as sources for a potential savior at the time. He was focused on the people Erika had secretly eliminated.

I see no reason to refute this simple and plausible explanation for such a questionable reason, one that could be argued either way.

I assure you that this solution is entirely possible, and so I can see your insistence that Battler should have realized it only as evidence against what you argue for. After all, this explanation works regardless of whether Kanon and Shannon are the same person. Wouldn't Battler want to use this solution first, before one that supposedly endangered the secret nature of his beloved witch? He should have used this even if Shannon and Kanon were the same.

I am not arguing that the personality shuffle solution to this room is impossible; after all, many supporters of the theory have repeatedly claimed, whether ignorantly or deceptively, that theirs is the only possible solution. All I need to do is solve the room in a satisfactory manner to present an alternative.

7 get.

[Edited]
>after all, many supporters of the theory have repeatedly claimed, whether ignorantly or deceptively, that theirs is the only possible solution.
Alright, I chuckled.

About the rest
>He should have used this even if Shannon and Kanon were the same.
So, who's assuming stuff now? So far I have admitted it's "possible", but I have yet not confirmed it myself. In any case, he of course would be able to leave the rooms, but just because it helps your theory it doesn't mean Kanon really did escape from the room as soon Erika leaved. Battler, as the GM freely move the pieces on the gameboard, except from Erika, who is probably the only piece he cannot control. So for this theory of yours to work he must have made Kanon to escape before Erika tape the room. And if that did happen he would be pretty much aware of the position of the pieces in his own game.

------
Also, from small Kinjo reread:

As soon Erika leaves the leaves the room, she enters the metaworld and asks battler to repeat the locations of everyone.

He confirms that "everyone else is in the cousin's room", upon hearing this, Erika shouts for Dlanor and Erika gets Gertrude and Cornelia to seal the two rooms (at the moment she shouts to Dlanor she returns to the gameboard, although Gertrude and Cornelia are present)

Alright, what do this mean? Did Erika actually need to go and place each seal? That would be if the was a normal character, but she still had the aid of Dlannor and the rest. My argument here will be as it follows: "Even if Battler was a complete retard and he enjoyed the logic error, the game itself strongly suggest the seals were placed immediately, as if magic was used. There's nothing wrong with this, because the story itself was easy to mold: some time later, Erika allowed Battler to rewrite a part of the plot, but he refused."

>>7778
I allow for pieces to be moved retroactively as long as their actions do not contradict the statements that have already been made. After all, the solution that you are supporting supposes the same thing occurred.

I will not however acknowledge an argument where magic is actually involved in the solution of the gameboard. Such an explanation is always discarded by humans. The very idea of a logic error operates under the assumption that everything must be achieved by human means. Otherwise, a logic error is only proof of magic.

From a human perspective, any actions of the Eiserne Jungfrau cannot be taken at face value. They must be representative of actions taken by a human or humans, namely Erika. She needed to go and place each seal.

So, if your solution is to be "this was achieved by magic," I will not contradict you. I welcome it. But at that point our discussion will be over.

I am acting under the assumption that your side will not allow for magic solutions.

>>7778
>Alright, what do this mean? Did Erika actually need to go and place each seal? That would be if the was a normal character, but she still had the aid of Dlannor and the rest. My argument here will be as it follows: "Even if Battler was a complete retard and he enjoyed the logic error, the game itself strongly suggest the seals were placed immediately, as if magic was used. There's nothing wrong with this, because the story itself was easy to mold: some time later, Erika allowed Battler to rewrite a part of the plot, but he refused."

This exactly. Time is irrelevant, we are supposed to assume that the second Erika says that the rooms are sealed, maybe not with a 'physically seal' but an agreement. Between Erika the player and Battler the GM, that from that moment the rooms were sealed.

To assume Ryu is playing a cruel trick and we are supposed to think about how long it would take Erika to place the seals is silly.

For such a trick there should be a hint explaining how long exactly it would take Erika to place a seal, and scale the windows.

So source of that information. "How long does it take Erika to seal a window?"

Provide a passage in any game that would explain how long this would take.

>>7781
Erika was previously granted the right to seal a few rooms with tape. The same sort she had used in episode 5. It is not a magical seal. The same tape is even referenced with the red.

What I view as silly is the alternate solution. That Shannon and Kanon are the same person, that the window was used as an escape method even though this was 'forbidden' as a blue truth via the red, that Shannon then switched her personality to Kanon, entered the room, allowed Battler to escape, set the chain, and then switched back to her Kanon personality.

Compared to that, it is not silly that Erika would have to take at least a few minutes to seal the rooms physically, both the doors and the windows, regardless of what the magical presentation of the sealing is. The actual time involved is irrelevant, as long as there is enough time for Kanon to leave the window of the room he is inside before Erika can scale the outside wall and seal that window. It would not even take him half a minute.

>>7782
That is not a good enough clue in my opinion.

Also I'm not saying that she didn't seal the rooms with a tape seal. I'm saying that before she made the seal, when she spoke those words Battler in essence agreed that the seals existed before she placed them.

And Ryu isn't that great at hiding his answers. Higurashi was obvious, Okami was easy to figure out, so Umineko's answer being relatively easy to guess at, aka Shkannon, makes sense.

Anyway didn't Ryu himself admit Shakannon was the answer pretty much.

>>7783
It is a good enough clue in my opinion. By this point, you should already know the pattern of closed rooms being perfectly closed, but at the wrong time. I could even argue that the presented order of events with Erika first asking for locations and sealing the rooms after the fact is evidence enough. I am afraid this is not one of your gameboards, so you will not be the arbitrator of what and what is and what is not a clue. Nor will I, of course. There are elements of the supposed truth that are exponentially shakier in their evidence, in any case.

Battler allowing the seals to exist before they are placed is magic. For humans, it does not make sense, as Erika would have broken those very seals by exiting the room she was in. Furthermore, Erika did not choose the two rooms to isolate the survivors in. That decision was left up to other pieces, so Erika would not know to seal them beforehand, were that even possible. She would also have motivation to avoid letting the others know she had placed the seals, as one group is supposed to believe she is with the other, and vice versa.

>Anyway didn't Ryu himself admit Shakannon was the answer pretty much.
This contradicts his earlier statements that he would never give away the answer in such a blatant manner. I cannot trust his interviews as a source considering what he has said about Erika was disproved in the most violent way possible.

>>7784
Those pieces wouldn't fly by what I've been taught about mysteries is all. But whatever.

That is not what I meant. I meant when Erika asked about the locations and asked Dlanor to seal the rooms. She was in the hallway at that time, not in the room. Thus she does not need to break the agreement to seal the rooms physically.

>This contradicts his earlier statements that he would never give away the answer in such a blatant manner. I cannot trust his interviews as a source considering what he has said about Erika was disproved in the most violent way possible.

Funny, because I believe that Erika isn't evil either.

>>7780
But is it really magic? The fight against the witch was already over at that time. Actually, didn't Battler rewrite the story so the tape Erika found could be used? He changed a fact using "magic". We would need to argue about what was possible on that game.

Aside from that I have only other two points to argue:

The one I mentioned before, just because we didn't think of that "possibility" before it doesn't mean the GM wouldn't have use it himself to escape from that terrible end. However that doesn't deny your theory.

And the second one, as Rin pointed: Umineko itself has no sense without Shkanontrice. I would have liked to be able to deny this possibility, but it seems I can't. I wonder, were you aware of this two years ago?

>>7785
You mean that Erika was actually sealing the rooms while she was still depicted in the hallway and asking for location confirmations. I cannot deny that is possible. Nor do I need to. My solution is equally possible, and it makes a great deal more sense. If an alternate solution to this closed room really is as impossible as is often claimed, there should be irrefutable evidence that denies my theory. Indeed, it is absolutely pointless to argue for you to argue for additional possibilities, because it can only be your side's advantage to restore the status quo by allowing for only one possible solution, which is your own.

I don't much want to hear your views on why someone who could methodically and premeditatedly decapitate four living adults and a child is merely misunderstood and in need of more discretion with their words.

>>7786
>But is it really magic? The fight against the witch was already over at that time. Actually, didn't Battler rewrite the story so the tape Erika found could be used? He changed a fact using "magic". We would need to argue about what was possible on that game.
I disagree. The human side demands a story that remains consistent with their own understanding of reality. The way in which the story is retroactively formed is irrelevant, as long as it can follow human logic from beginning to end. If it cannot, that is a logic error.

It was fairly easy to allow the argument to center on the red two years ago. After all, I was the one providing it. From scenes nobody else had read.

>>7789
At that time there was no other way to argue it. EP5 trick made it Shkanon look unlikely.
Do you have anything to argue to my second point?

>>7790
I see no need - it doesn't deny my theory. As you said yourself. However, I will say that this is just another way of suggesting that my solution is somehow impossible, because if it was possible, Battler would have thought of it. Or so is your claim.

I would suggest that instead of claiming that, you should demonstrate why it is impossible. I believe I have presented a solution without any trickery regarding interpretation of the truth. A clean and elegant one. And, that not only is the alternative not better than magic, but magic is actually being used as an attempt to deny me.

>>7791
We would need to assign rules to this game, then.
If the point was to prove the the possibility of other way to escape from that closed room, then you have won already. I really can't deny it right now, I see it unlikely, and actually, not elegant at all. But I will accept the current theory for that room is also unelegant, and it relies on wordplay (as almost everything, in Umineko)

So yeah, How fitting for Beatrice to break the illusion formed by Erika two years ago. I wonder, how does it feel?

>>7792
I disagree. It is most elegant because it is so simple and consistent. It is far better than what you are forced to argue on the other side.

I don't feel anything in particular.

>>7793
I never said it wasn't more elegant, but it totally throws to the trash everything that was foreshadowed on that episode. It's simpler, but it lacks substance. It totally doesn't feel like something Ryucakes would use. But I will accept it, it's possible.

It won't still change the fact how hinted and how the whole story flows about "Yasu & friends", however I congratulate you again, no one, not even Meta thought of this possibility at that time.

About the latter, well I apologize if it was rude, but it seemed as if you planned to start this argument from a long time ago.

>>7794
And why do you suppose that?

>>7795
Well, this whole situation it's really ironic. You are posting as "goat" using Beatrice sprites, fighting against the very same argument you used against us two years ago to make us accept Shkanon.
But then, some time passed and it seems you grow bored of it and you started trolling people at /jp/ about the theory you were so upset people didn't accept. And now that it's accepted as the truth by most of the thinking community, and Umineko has stopped being discussed at all, you came and post this alternative.

Sorry, it sounds as something Piece would do. You know, it has this classy style.

>>7796
Hmm. I'll take that as a compliment. But one, I did not plan this from the beginning. Your own reasoning says so. Two, this is not my thread, and three, "goat" is simply the default name on this board.

>>7797
Are you saying you were unware of this when you were fighting against Meta?

>>7798
No. What I am saying is that "refute my own argument one day" was not something I added to my agenda. In the first place, I have left this place for good several times, and have become exceedingly proficient at it. If I did plan such a thing, I would make sure to get it done before any farewell.

>and have become exceedingly proficient at it.
>I would make sure to get it done before any farewell.
Sorry, but these sentences contradict each other.

Piece is a notorious liar. Don't trust anything he says, anon~

>>7800
How so? I have planned to leave in all earnest many times, and so I would attend to any unfinished business before doing so. The fact that I did not means there was not anything left on the agenda. I just do things on a whim.

>>7801
How cruel. I always do my best to be intellectually honest.

>>7803
Fickle people can't be trusted at face value on most things~

>>7804
Fickleness simply means that my own personal truth is volatile and can change at any given moment. It doesn't mean I lie.

>>7801
I will continue to believe what he says, unless I can notice an ironic or sarcastic remark on it. This is the path I have chosen, this is the only way. (and not only for him)
>>7802
I believe you noticed since that time that you don't want to stay out of this board for a long time. This is of course just an hypothesis, which works with what you have told us about it.

>>7805
It doesn't mean you do. But you do nonetheless. At least it's amusing.

>>7806
Geeze, you're almost too good a person. I think ruci would be proud of you.

>>7807
That's how anon from seacats is it. I'm still a skeptic with other stuff, though.

>>7806
>>7807
In any case, I believe we are disrupting Squitcher's thread. You wouldn't want to derail activity by giving in to what the self-centered Piece wants, would you?

This was a nice distraction from the reaction images, but there is much left unsaid. After all, he intends this to be Shkanontrice's funeral, and I intend to help him along the way. I have much experience in arguing against this particular theory, after all.

I wouldn't even be here if not for insomnia. The one night feenie doesn't stream Strike Witches, I swear.

>>7809
Yeah, I was thinking the same. Then let's continue with it. I said some time ago than the strongest red evidence of Shkanon was this closed room, and I still the same. However you showed another possibility and I'll give you that.
What about the rest of the game, as a whole. Show me what else do you have against your beloved theory.

>>7811
So you want to continue right now, after all? That puts me at a disadvantage. I had hoped to wait for our host to return, at least.

If you put me on the spot like that, I find myself with nothing to say. And anything that I could say would be challenged by individual cases you would bring up yourself.

If I really must continue, then I would like you to take the lead. If that was the strongest evidence you had, then turn to the next piece. I would like a specific case around which to argue.

>>7812
Sure, we can start with the rest of episode 6. All hints and references from the love fight.