>>7904
So it seems.

>>7905
This is awkward.

I'll be back later to submit my elegant and thematically relevant explanation of all games that does not use Shannon or Kanon as culprits, much less use them as the same person.

>>7906
I'll be waiting then.

>>7906
Awaiting explanation, auu.

>>7906
Mi-. I wonder if this is going to be that KnownNoMore's Rosatrice thing, or something that's actually original.

What about the possibility of Shkannnontrice beeing true but without her beeing the culprit?

Besides, I don't really see how Shkannontrice would be so shocking and cruel for Ange...

Well, I'm looking forward to your theory aswell.

>>7910
Remember, the culprit of the gameboards and the culprit of Ange's world are not necessarily one and the same.

I personally never have managed to completely decide whether I think Yasu is the culprit in the real world or not. It's something I think about a lot and I've changed my position lots of times, but I don't know if I'll ever truly decide. But Ryukishi intended those two days on Rokkenjima to be an endless cat box, so if I never find the truth, that's probably exactly what Ryukishi wanted.

That said, I'm personally of the opinion that Eva's diary just said something along the lines of 'None of them will ever come back', rather than some kind of detailed report on the incident. That's what best accounts for Ange's reaction in my view.

>>7911
Well, the end doesn't make sense if Beatrice isn't somehow responsible for what happened. Battler didn't seem to care, though.

>>7912
Oh, Beatrice is definitely responsible somehow, but you can find a lot of variations on that.

You could say that Beatrice just carried out her murder plan as described in the message bottles but something went wrong and in the end Eva, Battler and Beatrice survived.

Or you could say that Beatrice only intended to set up a fake murder mystery to get Battler to remember the time they spent discussing mystery novels, and someone else took advantage of the fake mystery to actually start murdering people.

Or you could say that Beatrice set up a fake murder mystery but one of the people who didn't know that it was fake killed someone else out of paranoia, leading to a chain of misunderstandings that resulted in only three people being left alive. I've also heard an interesting variation on this where Battler is the one to first kill someone out of paranoia and so Ange's distress at reading the truth is due to her brother being the catalyst for the murders.

There are probably even more possibilities than these. Truly an endless cat box.

>>7913
>Truly an endless cat box.
I guess that was Ryucakes intention.

Your right, something like 'None of them will ever come back' would really work aswell.
I've got to think some more about it, but in the end it's really just as you said, it's an endless cat box...

>>7913
> I've also heard an interesting variation on this where Battler is the one to first kill someone out of paranoia and so Ange's distress at reading the truth is due to her brother being the catalyst for the murders.

Yes, that was my idea. I like it a lot because it's actually a really good reason for Touya's PTSD amnesia, which otherwise just seems like an ass-pull.

Also, it fits in well with the dilemma Battler faces during the early episodes between accepting the witch and mistrusting his family.

Of course it's just a theory, though. That cat box...

>>7916
So, in that Theory is Touya just pretending to have amnesia? Didn't he see a lot of Doctors?

>>7917
Nothing of the sort. The suppression of his memory and identity is a subconscious coping mechanism for the guilt he has in being responsible for tragedy. His amnesia is no lie.

>>7918
I see. Even if he didn't start the massacre I guess something like "Battler killed your mother" could work as well.

>>7919
And let's not forget AuraTwilight's Ange culprit theory from Board of the Golden Witch's bad end. That explained everything perfectly too. *giggle**giggle*

It's funny, even though I know it's a joke theory, I do kind of love the spin it puts on some of the stuff in Episode 8 when you read it that way.

By the way, sorry to disappoint, but I won't be posting my theory. I realized that it is full of holes.

I hate to admit it, but I might have been fighting the wrong fight all these years. Shkannontrice does make a lot of sense, even to me. I just never liked how it plays so loose with the author's own rules. I think it's about time I gave in and admitted it's better than any 'truth' I can come up with.

Thank you for your assistance.

It's perfectly possible to solve Gameboard 1 by just using Kanon as the culprit, I think.

So I read thepart about the body count and you seemsorely misinformed ablut transgender and transexual semantics.

omg stop posting it's already over

>>7921
Good to see you. I was worried about whether or not you'd be coming back.
Glad to see you accepted Shkannon too. About playing loose with the rules.. It does play with the rules, but it doesn't play with the story, the narrative itself. And I think that was the point.

W-what? Everyone's given up already?

I have read through the entire thread, and I'm still convinced as ever than Shkannontrice is total bullshit. Nothing I say now will convince you guys, so let me just affirm my position. This illusion will not hold as long as I am standing.

In my opinion, KMN's analysis of the booklet 'Our Confessions' is the most damning towards Shkannontrice. His final part was out relatively recently, if you guys haven't you should take a look.

>>7969

To elaborate, I can't begin to explain anything further because, in the end, both sides of the argument are pretty much solid. Exactly as Ryu planned. It's all a matter on how you want to view the story, I guess.

Sorry for triple posting, but I've been thinking about this for while and I think I've finally hit upon what Ryu's true intentions are.

I now acknowledge than Shkannontrice is certainly possible given the themes of the story. Don't forget the heart, and everything. I accept that.

But what I can't accept is that Ryu let a perfectly brilliant mystery go to waste. There's no question he's passionate about the mystery genre, he's read Christie, Carr, Dine, Boucher, and he's shown enormous respect for the grandest game in the world. He knows what does and doesn't work. And yet, there's this Shkannontrice shit, along with a whole bunch of inconsistencies that come along with it. I simply can't believe Ryu would have the audacity to hoodwink his readers like that.

And there's also the matter of Our Confessions. Unless I've missed something among the 200+ posts, no one has actually explained the purpose of that booklet. It outright states that Skannontrice is the culprit. It outright states there's a third story. It's outright implies that Skannontrice is bullshit. We can gather either two things - either Ryu is trolling us again with the 'Without love you can't see it', or he's trying to tell us something else.

But then, if the answer is not Skannontrice, then what was the last four episodes for? Filler? The entire thing a bunch of red herrings?

No matter how I see it, both Shkannontrice and Shkannonshit are equally possible.

And maybe that's exactly what Ryu intended. Neither viewpoint is better than the other - he has repeatedly asked us to choose. It's fantasy vs mystery, after all. The fantastical, ludicrous solution of Shkannontrice versus the logical, intelligent solution of something else. It's like two different endings of a computer game (and it is).

Ryu has been writing two stories, both which are equally true. One implying Shkannontrice, the other (if KMN is correct) implying Rosatrice. In other words, everything I've been saying boils down to this: Shkannontrice is true for those who choose to believe it, but for the other die-hard mystery fans, Ryu does have another solution hidden beneath the story for us to find. Both theories lie within the catbox. None is more possible than the other.

Sorry for triple posting, but I've been thinking about this for while and I think I've finally hit upon what Ryu's true intentions are.

I now acknowledge than Shkannontrice is certainly possible given the themes of the story. Don't forget the heart, and everything. I accept that.

But what I can't accept is that Ryu let a perfectly brilliant mystery go to waste. There's no question he's passionate about the mystery genre, he's read Christie, Carr, Dine, Boucher, and he's shown enormous respect for the grandest game in the world. He knows what does and doesn't work. And yet, there's this Shkannontrice shit, along with a whole bunch of inconsistencies that come along with it. I simply can't believe Ryu would have the audacity to hoodwink his readers like that.

And there's also the matter of Our Confessions. Unless I've missed something among the 200+ posts, no one has actually explained the purpose of that booklet. It outright states that Skannontrice is the culprit. It outright states there's a third story. It's outright implies that Skannontrice is bullshit. We can gather either two things - either Ryu is trolling us again with the 'Without love you can't see it', or he's trying to tell us something else.

But then, if the answer is not Skannontrice, then what was the last four episodes for? Filler? The entire thing a bunch of red herrings?

No matter how I see it, both Shkannontrice and Shkannonshit are equally possible.

And maybe that's exactly what Ryu intended. Neither viewpoint is better than the other - he has repeatedly asked us to choose. It's fantasy vs mystery, after all. The fantastical, ludicrous solution of Shkannontrice versus the logical, intelligent solution of something else. It's like two different endings of a computer game (and it is).

Ryu has been writing two stories, both which are equally true. One implying Shkannontrice, the other (if KMN is correct) implying Rosatrice. In other words, everything I've been saying boils down to this: Shkannontrice is true for those who choose to believe it, but for the other die-hard mystery fans, Ryu does have another solution hidden beneath the story for us to find. Both theories lie within the catbox. None is more possible than the other.

>>7972
>>7972

Shit.

If shkshit is true, does that mean Battler has four digits per hand?

>>7994

Does that mean you're rejoining the fight?

>>7971

We talked about Our Confessions a little bit (the "3 stories" bit- that's from Our Confessions). I don't think KnownNoMore interpreted it right. I certainly agree with him that parts of it are... unrealistic, but I think the reason has to do more with Yasu (or whoever) just writing something unrealistic than "as an example of how not to think".

KnownNoMore's problem is that he is an intellectual coward who cannot face the prospect of non-absolute knowability. He hides behind a series of assumptions in order to create a situation where he can "solve" Umineko. If he couldn't solve it, he'd just add assumptions until he could.

One such assumption is that the games exist independently of the meta-world. He can't accept how there's a lack of objective information he can get from Ange's and the meta-narrative, which he seems to think is a liscense to dismiss anything from them as "not evidence". However, the games must have some relevance to each other, so what we get is KnownNoMore's interpretation that it's all in Battler's mind as he lies dying after Rosa killed everyone else, which is complete nonsense, supported in no way by anything. In fairness, KNM acknowledges that it's unsupported, but that's no excuse for trading the richly developed meta-fictional explanation, lacking in objective verification as it may be, for a completely ad-hoc explanation. So why does he? Because the ad-hoc explanation is compatible with his other assumptions and the meta-fictional explanation is not.

As far as I'm concerned, going against the meta-fictional explanation is unthinkable. The meta-narrative would have no relevance otherwise. And as such the fictional events depicted on the island do not need to conform to Umineko's reality in any way. If they do, it's because that's how the author (Yasu, Ikuko, or whoever) intended it.

However, contrary to this, KnownNoMore seems to think that the various games from each episode represent some kind of actual Umineko reality, but not THE actual Umineko reality. He calls the false games "counter-factuals" as if using the term explains how they are relevant to Umineko's true reality and why they can provide us with objective information about Umineko's true reality. It's an empty concept because there is no objective way to know what "facts" in each "counter-factual" are the ones "counter" to Umineko's reality, although KnownNoMore seems to think that the counter-facts are usually just the how-dunnit. This is entirely an assumption. To demonstrate how silly this line of assuming gets, KnownNoMore actually thinks Erika, her personality and all, exists as a real person in Umineko's real world. Erika is as fictional as characters can get (she's a blatant Mary Sue for chrissake!).

Then there is the red truth. KnownNoMore arbitrarily applies red to Umineko's reality itself, even though red is clearly introduced as a mechanic to be applied to "playing games". There is a clear difference in meta-level. If I spoke to you in red, could I dictate reality itself? Of course not, I have no authority over the truth of reality. But if I spoke in red about a fictional reality that I myself created (much like what is practiced here on seacats)? Then we'd have a different story, because I am the "gamemaster" of that fictional reality. Thus, red would be best looked at as a mechanism for "creating" a fictional reality rather than simply revealing it.

So what does all this have to do with RosaTrice? Everything. The point is that there is no reason to assume, as KnownNoMore does, that the games provide any objective information about what's inside the cat box. The games are fiction, and what happens in them may or may not tell us something about the author's world. That even includes red truth as well.

So, yeah, if you assume what KnownNoMore assumes, his answer is good. Brilliant, in fact. If I were creating a team of people to solve fictional mysteries, KnownNoMore would be my first pick: He came up with a lot of very good solutions I never would have (and some ridiculous ones, too), and I respect that. But, it's all built on a landslide of assumptions to mold Umineko into a perfect world for his own way of thinking. Then he comes out like an ass saying "I'm right and ShKanon is hopelessly wrong". Not very open-minded.

>>7998
>To demonstrate how silly this line of assuming gets, KnownNoMore actually thinks Erika, her personality and all, exists as a real person in Umineko's real world. Erika is as fictional as characters can get (she's a blatant Mary Sue for chrissake!).
And yet supporters of the official explanation believe Yasu actually exists! I would argue that she is much less realistic than Erika. She is convoluted nonsense. So it is entirely possible for Erika to exist, and for the episodes she appears in to be counter-factuals of the fact that she drowned before she could reach the island.

>Then there is the red truth. KnownNoMore arbitrarily applies red to Umineko's reality itself, even though red is clearly introduced as a mechanic to be applied to "playing games". There is a clear difference in meta-level. If I spoke to you in red, could I dictate reality itself? Of course not, I have no authority over the truth of reality. But if I spoke in red about a fictional reality that I myself created (much like what is practiced here on seacats)? Then we'd have a different story, because I am the "gamemaster" of that fictional reality. Thus, red would be best looked at as a mechanism for "creating" a fictional reality rather than simply revealing it.
This is the world of 1967
In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice-sama existed as a human
[In the past,] those two actually had a conversation like that in this place
What do these lines that seem to speak of the actual reality of Umineko mean to you? Are they just made up backstories for Yasu's fiction? That makes them quite useless.

It seems to me that many people are under the illusion that the "meta-narrative" makes any sense at all, contrary to the reality that it is something so multi-layered and contradictory because it is something that was made up as the story went along. Have you ever gone back and reviewed the meta-narrative of the earlier episodes? The tea party of episode 1 congratulates the reader for having finished Umineko no Naku Koro ni. Bern, a cat according to the meta-narrative, appears to encourage the player. According to interviews, which believers in the official explanation actually trust for some reason, Bern was originally not supposed to be an antagonist at all - just a character who could provide some hints to the reader as the story went along. Most likely, if the story hadn't been pulled in the strange direction it took on a whim, the ura tea parties would have always been collections of hints from Bern and friends, and the tea parties would have taken place in the same reality as the first few do, serving as overviews of the game that they followed.

For the first few episodes, the meta world is a very simple place. Meta-Battler is someone who fights simply to argue that witches do not exist, and he does this for no reason in particular - there is no mention of finding the truth, or helping his family, or recalling anything in particular, until episode 4. He's a piece removed from the gameboard who observes Beato's games, and most certainly does not write them himself. The reader is not given much reason to think about the world Battler finds himself in. It's just a device to explore the counter-factuals and thereby gather evidence. It clearly has no concrete existence in any kind of meta-fiction, because it acknowledges itself as a game that exists in our world. Thereby, there can be red statements about reality itself, which serve mostly as words from Ryuukishi07, the creator of Umineko's reality, to the reader.

>>8004

yay

>>7998

What is the purpose of Our Confessions, then, if you don't believe it was used to emphasise the silliness of Shkannon? If Shkannon really was true, there would be no purpose in Ryu trying to hammer it into our heads again. He's already aware that Shkannon is believed by many, he's even given out the answer blatantly in the interviews. Our Confessions would be just a waste of paper in that regard.

>>8005
Not at all. Our Confessions cleared up a lot of things, such as confirming that the accomplices believed they were part of a 'fake murder game' and incorporating some of the answers he'd given during interviews into actual official material (such as how Shannon shot herself without leaving a visible weapon in EP2). It's not a waste of paper in the slightest.

Still, I think your idea about both solutions being equally valid is a lot more polite than the nonsense about Shkanontrice being impossible and ridiculous that a lot of people come out with. It's nice to see someone actually acknowledge that some do in fact find Shkanontrice a satisfying and meaningful explanation.

>>8004

>Most likely, if the story hadn't been pulled in the strange direction it took on a whim, the ura tea parties would have always been collections of hints from Bern and friends, and the tea parties would have taken place in the same reality as the first few do, serving as overviews of the game that they followed.

You're high.

>there is no mention of finding the truth, or helping his family, or recalling anything in particular, until episode 4.

Yeah, when Ange was introduced and catalyzed all these things. Think that was a whim?

>>8005
ShKanon is silly. No one disputes this. No one. So, let me reverse the question: What purpose would hammering the sillyness of ShKanon serve when it is already so obviously ridiculous?

Sorry for the double post; I had meant to reply to this before
>>8004
>And yet supporters of the official explanation believe Yasu actually exists!
I do think Yasu exists, but also that she is largely misunderstood. The version of "Yasu" you speak of I probably think does not exist.

>>8008
Well, I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with the discussion of what's in the catbox. RK07 gave us mountains of material to work with. I just don't think there's a real "murder mystery" behind it for us to solve, since I don't think Yasu's a murderer in the first place.

>>8009
>>8010
I think you should address my strongest point.

This is our introduction to the "meta-narrative." How can you argue that this is a fiction within a fiction? This line alone should signify that the meta world is a world that is involved with our actual reality, and stands above the reality of the actual Umineko world. Therefore, reds can refer to actual facts of that reality, rather than fictional works within it.

>>8011
I can't fathom how you could take a line that's so obviously a joke so seriously. Are you going to say next that there's some kind of deep meaning behind Battler saying he's read Higurashi, or Erika talking to 'the people behind the TV screens' in Ep6?

Also, your point about the meta-world just being a way to give the player information in the first three episodes is quite clearly wrong, since the whole plot of Episode 3 revolves around the relationship between two characters in the meta-world.

>>8012
Aren't you taking it to be a joke because it's convenient to you? It is the first line of the meta-world, I think we should take it seriously. It is a clear way to recognize what kind of reality we are dealing with. For Higurashi, you have some room to argue, as that is a separate fiction, it is not self-reference. It could exist as some kind of novel in the Umineko world. There is also no need to take Erika seriously, as she shows no meta-knowledge; anyone can pretend they are par of some TV performance. I could do it right now. But if I was the part of some TV performance, I would certainly not be able to know its name and state it and congratulate my viewers on having completed it.

You could perhaps argue that Yasu named her letters 'Umineko no Naku Koro ni', but this would surely have to appear somewhere in the endless discussions about the letters and the legend of the Rokkenjima witch murders. There is never any such mention. As for episode 3, I don't think that means my point is wrong at all. Even if it is just a device to deliver information about the mystery, it can have its own points of interest and driving forces.

I just think that the meta-narrative became convoluted exactly because it is contradictory and deviated from what was initially planned. The kind of reasoning people are now applying to the narrative on the whole, as if it can somehow be explained by Battler writing it all, is overly eager and, I think, results in them being caught up in the reasoning of later episodes that do not at all connect well with the established facts of the beginning.

You both might have different answers to the question, but do you really believe those reds about the world of 1967 exist entirely as fiction within fiction, and do not at all speak of the reality? Because if that were the case, there is extremely little in the story that is not meta-narrative, and you can explain the reality in whatever way you please.

>>8013
>You both might have different answers to the question, but do you really believe those reds about the world of 1967 exist entirely as fiction within fiction, and do not at all speak of the reality? Because if that were the case, there is extremely little in the story that is not meta-narrative, and you can explain the reality in whatever way you please.

And that's exactly how it was intended. The whole message of Episode 8 was that nothing in the other episodes could be taken for granted, and for all we know the characters could have acted completely differently to how they were portrayed within the stories.

Incidentally, I've noticed that KnownNoMore seems to never bring up Episode 8 at all in his videos. Perhaps that's because its message is inconvenient to him.

Regardless, to answer your question, I don't see any reason to think that any red truth used in the context of the gameboard refers to something outside the gameboard. There is no red truth in the human world, so it would be foolish to say that we can know something happened for certain in reality.

>>8014

I'm sure KnownNoMore dismisses Battler's game in EP8 as having "no objective observer" (In fact, not only does he rarely bring up any of EP8, but when he does it's always in dismissal of that part of it; reds of course being the only exceptions).

And speaking of the "detective" role, the fact that the piece filling this role can change between games should also clue people in that the roles of any and all pieces can change.

>>8014
>Regardless, to answer your question, I don't see any reason to think that any red truth used in the context of the gameboard refers to something outside the gameboard. There is no red truth in the human world, so it would be foolish to say that we can know something happened for certain in reality.
Hmm. This is exactly the kind of nonsense believers in this explanation are forced to argue themselves into to cover the inconsistencies.

If I were a real witch, or otherwise God or something like that, I could speak the red regarding our world, couldn't I? I hate to admit that I am not. However. Umineko's reality is a gameboard, you know? And Ryuukishi07 is the God of that gameboard. Therefore, he can speak the truth in red. It is not the human world, I don't know why you pretend it is.

It perplexes me when you see scenes such as the one at the end of episode 8 with the statement The truth is written in this diary. and conclude that exactly because the red is used, it must be nothing more than a fiction that has no particular bearing on the Umineko world's reality. Highly ironic.

Furthermore. I do not trust the interviews myself, but as the other side does, I think you shouldn't be under the false impression that there is anything more than a single, conclusive truth that can be deduced when considering all evidence. Because that is what the interviews say. They do not say it's a cat box where the truth can never be discerned no matter how hard you try, or that multiple truths can exist. They explicitly say that if you look at all evidence, you can only arrive at one truth. Episodes 8 is not meant to be taken to mean that the truth of Umineko can be whatever you fancy. But we all already accept this. Or we wouldn't be having this discussion as to which party is right.

I've hit upon a new train of thought which will enable me to post a long and concise argument on Shkannon soon, but first, I would like to know exactly what exact stand Shkannon advocaters take. So Madam Wanderer, and Madam Rika-Beatrice, would you kindly indicate your exact viewpoint out of the following 3?

Do you believe...(regardless of whether the games are fiction(and regardless of what's really true on Rokkenjima Prime))

a) Yasu is real, but is meant to be the culprit behind the first six games.

b) Yasu is real, but is not involved in the tragedy. The culprit is the first six games isn't her and can(or must be) someone else.

c) Yasu is real, but the entire thing is a catbox, yadda yadda. The games don't have anything to do with anything at all. They can be completely ignored.

>>8009

If people thought Shkannon was silly they wouldn't have believed in it.

But before we get into the argument about 'it's supposed to be silly', let's turn the chessboard around for a moment. Ryu has just finished eight episodes. It's been over a year since he produced anything plot-relevant. Why would he take the trouble to publish a redundant epilogue, and in paperback, much less? It's because he wanted to have the last word. It's because he wants to let the fanbase know something that wasn't known before.

At that point in time, I think, much, much more people believed in Shkannon that those who didn't. What would be the point of convincing the majority something they already knew? Unless he was trying to convince them of something else.

You could argue on other interpretations, of course, that it's a simple dramatization of Shkannon's murders or whatever. Again, as I said earlier, both interpretations have about the same possibility(but obviously I believe KNM's interpretation is more likely), so arguing about this any further would be a waste of time, I guess.

>>8017
I'm not really sure what you're saying. None of us have ever said that the red has no value. But it does have no value outside the context in which it is used, which is the gameboard.

I'm not sure why you're acting like the gameboards being written fiction in Umineko's world is a point you can dispute, since it is something that is established repeatedly throughout the series.

If you read a work of fiction and it said something was certainly true, would you assume that it was true in the real world too? Clearly that conversation must have happened in 1967 in our world too, then. After all, it's been confirmed in red in a work of fiction.

Furthermore, it's quite clear that Episode 8 takes place inside Ange's mind, so 'the diary contains the truth' being said in red is simply a representation of Ange's total conviction that the diary does contain the truth.

>>8018
I think you are confusing the gameboard with reality. The truth of the gameboard can certainly be reached, and that is what Ryukishi is referring to. I can lay out my solutions to all mysteries on the gameboard if you like. However, this has nothing to do with Ange's reality, only stories written within it.

>>8020
Those are quite strange choices you've listed there. They are neither mutually exclusive nor even exhaustive, so I'm not sure why you've asked me to choose one.

I believe a servant called Yasuda Sayo (or Yasuda Yoshiya if you prefer) did exist in reality and felt conflicted between three different futures, as well as unsure that she could achieve any of them. She also planned some kind of murder game to try and make Battler remember her, but whether she was just going to show the stories to Battler or to commit the murders herself or to set up a fake murder mystery for Battler to solve is unknowable.

As for your points about Our Confession, I believe I already gave an answer at >>8008 .

>>8020
Also, I agree that the idea that Shkanontrice could be pulled off in real life is absurd, but it is not at all a silly way for Yasu to illustrate what she wanted to through her stories.

>>8021
You start with the assumption that the red is in a work of fiction and use that to arrive at the conclusion that it's fictitious. What would that red even mean? Battler made up the idea of a hidden mansion and a previous Beatrice and a conversation, and wrote this into his letter forgery as a red truth? Does that mean Rosa's experience of meeting Beatrice is also falsified? Is the entire of Yasu's backstory in episode 7 just something that Battler made up because he thought it might fit the character of Yasu? Well, of course I believe that nonsense to be at last false or misinterpreted, but to you, at least, it should be true.

And if your view is true, Battler would only have two episodes to go on to discover the truth of Yasu's heart. How could do that? Isn't his entire discovery of truth nothing but a delusion in his fictions?

I don't believe it is an established fact that everything we see presented to us (aside from a few hand-picked scenes, I have no idea which you would choose) are a fiction within fiction. I don't think what is written in the message bottles are the episodes as we see them. That would be absurd.

Like this, the truth can be whatever you like. You become an author for the story, not someone who deduces. The truth of Umineko is that a servant named Runon, who wasn't supposed to be the on the island at the time, killed everyone. But Battler got away, unfortunately. Can you dispute this...?

It's irrelevant, but I am curious. What are your solutions for the gameboards?

>>8028
Why does Tohya have to have made it up? (I call him Tohya since it seems disrespectful to call him by a name he no longer identifies with.) It seems quite clear to me that Yasu told Battler everything at some point. He wouldn't be able to include details about things like Sakutaro and Mariage Sorciere otherwise. Therefore I think it's highly probable that the information in the gameboards is based on Tohya's memories of what Yasu has told him.

>Like this, the truth can be whatever you like. You become an author for the story, not someone who deduces.

That is one of the central themes of the story, isn't it? In an endless cat box, nothing can be denied.

I'm curious, if you think that the gameboards are supposed to actually happen somehow, why would Ryukishi even write about the message bottles and the world after the murders at all?

I suppose I'll give you an abbreviated version of my Episode 1 solution; I don't have the time to write it all out right now.

The motives for Krauss, Natsuhi and the servants to be accomplices are basically the same as written at http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=3927670&postcount=26755 , under Accomplices.

During the late-night family conference, Beatrice, Krauss and Natsuhi tell the rest of the siblings and spouses about the plan, and show them the room with the gold. Everyone co-operates under the assumption that nobody is actually going to die and Beatrice will give them all part of the gold to solve their money troubles.

First twilight: Beatrice leads everyone to believe that she's prepared fake corpses and is going to lead the victims of the first twilight to a place where they can find safety, but she actually kills them in the shed. She then sets up something vaguely corpse-shaped in the corner of the shed; it would be easily seen as a fake if it was viewed closely, but at a glance, since it is in the shadows, it seems like there are six corpses. Taking risks is necessary for magic, so Beatrice is prepared to give up if someone notices that the sixth corpse isn't there. From there, Battler only glances at the corpses before leaving and Hideyoshi tells George not to look at the corpse, so it all goes to plan.

Second twilight: Eva and Hideyoshi go to their room, possibly as part of a pre-arranged script. Beatrice and Genji cut the chain, Beatrice kills them and the two of them proceed to act like they discovered the bodies.

Fourth twilight: Beatrice burns Kinzo's corpse, which she asked Genji to preserve after his death.

Fifth twilight: Beatrice uses fake blood to create the illusion that Kanon was staked and pulled the stake out. Then Nanjo and Jessica act like Kanon was killed.

6th-8th twilights: Beatrice has a master key, the lock to the parlor isn't even an issue. Beatrice made the phone call while Maria was singing, then left and locked the door.

Ninth twilight: The letter that Natsuhi reads is the same "Witch's Letter IV" from the second episode. As midnight is nearing and there has been no sign of Beatrice coming to take her and Jessica to safety, Natsuhi suspects that Beatrice may have been lying to them and goes to confront her. She finds her in the entrance hall and tries to shoot her, but her gun was never actually loaded and she is killed.

Tenth twilight: The bomb goes off, everyone's dead.

>>8030
I think it would be very hard for Yasu (if she existed) would have told Battler everything at some point during the two days. That's why I think the parts that Battler can't possibly know himself must prove that the games we are shown aren't exactly what the letters contain.

I'm sure I could compile a very long list of things Battler knew when it should have been impossible for him, and in doing so show what Yasu must have told him (by the official explanation).

Still, even if I find it unlikely I can't dispute the possibility. I resign again. Maybe all this is true...

>>8035
For the record, the scene at the very end where Battler and Beatrice talk on the boat seems to strongly give the impression that Battler already totally understands her at that point.

>>8064
I don't find that scene very believable at all. Why would Battler be fine with a ride on a small motorboat without his usual fear of falling?

>>8068
I find it odd too, but I don't see why the scene would be there if there wasn't some truth to it, even if it may be embellished somewhat.

And Battler did seem okay on the boat once the captain slowed down a bit.