>>211
Which Battler?

Both, because I refuse to accept Ryukishi's argument that a person's body can't be held accountable for the actions of the mind inhabiting it. That's called the insanity defense.
Because Yasu loved everybody, I affectionately refer to Umineko as the Sayo Yasuda Dating Game.

>Battler doesn't give two shits about Sayo in the past.
>Beatrice is his ideal woman.
>Scenes in Chiru show him talking to Beatrice and he doesn't mention Shkannon or whatever at all.

I think Sayo pretty much had no choice but to 'become' Beatrice in order for Battler to love her, it was said in Episode 7. Battler actually never loved Sayo herself.

>>218
Hmm, well I haven't read that part in a long time, but if I had to make a guess it sounds like it would be Shkanon in general. While most(if not all) of Battler's answers to the howdunits are said to be false, she naturally doesn't want to admit the whole Yasu plot so easily, for it is her heart, and thus Lambda calls it a "trick up her sleeve".

Last edited at 14/11/20(Thu)23:25:04

>>189
Then you are dumb, because the adults aren't stupid and they are INCREDIBLY stupid there.

Ange also never actually read that letter. And we don't ever learn the purpose behind it. You could use it to say Kyrie/Rudolf, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were "in on it," but then you won't be able to defend what they were in on or why they were being compensated in that particular fashion.

And plus, you know, if Kyrie was already going to get paid quietly in an untraceable manner, WHY GO ON A KILLING SPREE? She's rational enough to pick a sure thing over a messy potential... unless she doesn't trust Yasu, in which case why does she trust her about (1) the alleged bomb, (2) the bank card, (3) the gold, (4) that nobody else is gonna find out about this.

>>191
Because Kiyre wasn't really that smart?

She's kind of a sociopath who thinks everyone thinks like her. Once the shooting started she immediately interpreted it as "kill everyone before they kill you first."

As to why Beato was believed... Why wouldn't they? They had already found out that Kinzo had actually built an elaborate system of secret passage ways to hid his 10 tons of Nazi gold, revealed to them by the Witch who Kinzo had spent ages ranting about after sending them a letter. "I wouldn't put it past Kinzo" is a constant refrain because the man was such a nutter that him doing absurd things like this was perfectly believable.

It's not exactly pleasant, but pretty much the entire story was saying that a lot of times people want to hide unpleasant facts because they're painful to themselves or others.

It's the only one that fits because it's the only "fact" painful enough that the survivors would want to hide it.

>>192
She's only "kind of a sociopath" in situations that are engineered to deliberately portray her as the killer. Natsuhi is also "kind of insane" in ep5, but she can be and is portrayed as considerably more grounded at other times.

The rest you're just completely incapable of grasping the point. You can't bring up the payout boxes (assuming for the moment they are what you believe them to be, which we've never really had confirmed) AND suggest Kyrie would decide to go ahead and kill everybody when much better options are available knowing that your financial situation is already squared away (such as killing just Yasu and then pinning the deaths on her).

If, however, you don't trust Yasu to hold up her end of that bargain, that might be a motive to betray her. But if you don't trust her there, you can't trust her about everything ELSE she says. She tells you there's a bomb that can wipe the whole island out. What happens when you use that information to kill everybody and use the bomb to cover it up and the bomb... doesn't work? Congratulations, the cops have now nailed your ass on Monday. If you think Yasu's going to betray you, why wouldn't she betray you about that other shit? Maybe she broke the mechanism. Maybe it doesn't work anymore. Are you seriously going to just take her word for it when you already distrust her?

The ep7 Tea Party simply cannot work as anything even remotely close to a solution. One way or another, things don't add up. It's missing something thematically essential in the form of Beatrice's active agency and forces most of the adults but especially Kyrie wildly out of character. It may have grains of truth in it, but it's not the answer.

Honestly, do people just ignore everything about Kyrie except the ep7 TP and Bern's game in ep8?

>>193
Tea party 7 made Kyrie act completely out of character. She was calculating and cold,sure, but she was also warm towards others at times. She never shown signs, other than that magic scene in ep 6 which didn't even happen, to be a sociopath or have murderous intent towards anyone.
Not to mention Kyrie dies in almost the gameboard within the first twilight, except for ep 4 unless someone solves the epitaph, which I find hardly a coincidence.

People give tea party 7 as an explanation for what happened in Prime as an easy solution when it is complete fabrication.

My personal belief is that Kyrie being the culprit with her husband is the commonly accepted theory for what happened on Rokkenjima between the mystery fans in the real world (future).
I find it hardly surprising that when Bern construct her own story/mystery, she places the same culprit as in Tea party 7 but with the addition of Battler, who completely dismisses it after solving it.

Accepting the last few episodes really makes people ignore the entirety of the story beforehand.

>>184
To go further, the main point of issue is that many people seem to think that the gameboards are actual realities rather than just possibilities and speculations. This leads to lines of thought like "Ange's story in 1998 must take place in EP3's Fragment since that's the one where Eva survived" and "Erika washed up on the island in all games, she just didn't happen to survive in the first four", and so on. (KnownNoMore actually believes both of those, incidentally.)

Obviously there is no issue in using the metaphors of 'the sea of Fragments' assuming that one actually understands them. But there seem to be quite a lot of people who actually take it at face value, despite the overwhelming evidence of author theory in the last few episodes. Well, even I was under that impression for quite a while after I first read Umineko.

Well, the meta-world makes everything kludgy, so who really knows. I view the contents of the catbox as essentially infinite because they are theoretically infinite, but the only Fragments that anyone is ever going to know about are ones that exist. It's just more exist than we see; for example Trinity and Land, which are stated to have existed but we haven't the slightest idea what they'd be like.

My thought is more that the Sea exists beyond the general space of the existence of the catbox and that any story that theoretically could be written has been written and exists in that sea. But that's just a metaphor; in "reality," only stories that actually were written (such as the canon ones, and unidentified Forgeries known to exist in canon) can be used for anything, since obviously characters can't read a story that doesn't exist.

But like, what about the Fragments they search through to find the epitaph solution? Does that mean there are Fragments where authors tried to do that? Does that mean that there was at least one story actually written that correctly solved it? Or is Bern just leafing through potential stories, knowing that sooner or later in a contained infinity some story would eventually get the details right?

None of that is stated anywhere though (nor is much of anything about the true nature of the meta-world), so it could all be nonsense. The point is that the stories we read are definitely in-universe Forgeries... except like, what is Requiem? What is Twilight? Fanthology mash-ups? Something else entirely? Bern implies Lion was Yasu's idea, but Yasu never wrote about Lion, so who came up with Lion?

Noticed this in some archives. Has some theories I didn't completely read so I'mma going to leave it here since I'm sure this is one or two things that could spark debate.

https://archive.foolz.us/a/thread/88016721/

Last edited at 13/06/27(Thu)08:39:23

One of the guys in that thread is literally plagiarizing my AS posts, almost word for word! And not a single mention of MAH FANFICS? Unacceptable!

>>144
It's quite obvious from reading the novels that she didn't do it.

>>149
>>148
Oh derp, that's right, Yasu didn't actually die.

It's elementary, my dear Kinjo!

>>144
That cigarette butt in Eva and Hideyoshi's room is pretty difficult to explain if she wasn't involved somehow.

I think that Eva is probably the culprit for everything in EP3 except the first twilight, George, and Nanjo. (And Hideyoshi was presumably shot by Rudolf or Kyrie, after which Eva accidentally killed him while staking his body under the assumption that he was already dead.) The conversations between Eva and EVA-Beatrice make way too much sense that way.