>>44667
You lost me.

Kiritsugu spoke the decision in his heart with such a calmness and evenness that even Saber could not find any words to reply to him.

Even if his method and path were unendurably evil – his faith in seeking the Holy Grail was pure and selfless. She had to admit that if there was a Master in the war worthy of obtaining the Holy Grail, then he would undoubtedly be Emiya Kiritsugu.

>>44666
Whether or not you can save the world, good actions leave a good mark behind, and inspire hope for a better future. Isn't that good enough~? It's not about "following the rules" or anything like that. It's about creating good by what you do.

What do you call someone who tries to do good by evil means? Usually, you call them a villain~

>>44669
And yet, it still sounds to me like Saber was right and believed she was right, and Kiritsugu was wrong, even if he had a noble ideal in the end. It's probably true none of the other masters had very noble ideals, but being the worst of the worst doesn't make you good~

>>44670
Right and wrong are subjective and irrelevant when you have a wish granting machine. Saber wanted to save a kingdom, while Kiritsugu wanted to save the world.

Without Avenger to mess it up, he would have succeeded. Well, it's all up to your interpretation anyway.

>>44670
Imagine the following situation:
1) Evil person get the grial
2) Nobody can stop him
3) Everyone die

Yes, I'm not saying Kiritsugi it's a hero, he doesn't even believe in heroes. I'm just saying the less worse from the bunch is probably the best one, although there's also Rider's master.

And for last >good actions leave a good mark behind, and inspire hope for a better future.
You know, I would like think the same, but sometimes I don't know anymore.

>>44671
"But if not for avenger, he would have succeeded."

You're missing the whole point, silly~ It's a STORY. Kiritsugu was ALWAYS going to lose. If it wasn't Avenger, it would have been something else. There is literally no way he would have won because it was written in the story that he would lose.

That is because the point of Fate/Zero (and similar stories, it's a rather old tale) is that you can't achieve good by doing a bunch of evil. Don't you understand? There is no omnipotent wish-granting device. The magi corrupted it from the very start because of their selfish desires. Again, their evil actions tainted their noble goal. As always happens. See~?

>>44673
Fair enough!

>>44672
Okay, first off, Kiritsugu isn't set on gaining the Grail to stop the bad men from getting it. You're also completely ignoring my point, that Fate/Zero is Kiritsugu's story. What matters the most are his actions, and his intentions. He had a noble goal, but he failed because of his evil actions.

The most good he managed to do? Inspiring Shirou to become a hero. Funny how that works out, as it had nothing to do with his "ends justify the means" philosophy and was just an act of mercy on a kid~

>>44671
Except he wasn't nearly as sympathetic as Nox. He's just a sociopath who wouldn't know right from wrong if it kicked him in the junk.

>>44676
Disregard what I said, I was thinking of Kotomine.

>>44675
>He had a noble goal, but he failed because of his evil actions.

No. You can argue that Fate/Zero is that type of story all you want, but that right there is literally wrong. Regardless of Emiya Kiritsugu's actions the Grail was going to be corrupt. And Fate/Zero is NOT Kiritsugu's story alone, it never was. It was explicitly written with the goal of having no true main character, as per Gen Urobuchi's wishes. He might be the closest thing to a main character.

>>44678
Of course the Grail was always corrupt, but it was corrupt because of actions just like his. He didn't literally cause the corruption of the Grail, no. But he could have done good if he'd taken a different approach. Not via the Grail, obviously.

Again, that is the point. The story isn't about "you can't do everything it's all useless." There is some good he can do. When Kiritsugu saved Shirou, he did something good. And we know what Shirou goes on to do, to become. That simple, selfless act--that had nothing to do with his ideal, and nothing to do with the Holy Grail War--ended up doing more good than all of his other methods combined. So think of what good he could have done in the world if he'd devoted his life to saving people instead of ruthlessly killing in the name of an ideal.

And even if you say it was intended to be written to not have a particular main character, I would say it failed in that regard. This is definitely Kiritsugu's story, at least in the adaptation.

>>44679
That is the adaptation's fault, yes.

Kiritsugu does plenty of good outside of the Grail War, too. Killing freakshows and vampires and all sorts of other abominations was kind of his thing, nevermind his days of literally joining wars to put an end to them. (You know, the horrific kinds with child soldiers.)

You can not like his methods, great. But you're from a completely different world view than he is and given the amount of shit he's seen, yes, I think he's right. If Saber didn't have a magic sword and went through the same life as Kiritsugu, I'm sure she'd be a little more prone to taking extreme courses of action too.

You can have your opinion on him, that's fine, but I don't really think he's as villainous as you're making him out to be.

I also don't really agree that his saving of Shirou did more good than any of his other acts (unless you want to include the random crapshoot universes where Shirou becomes a jaded fuck just like Kiritsugu when he becomes Eirei Emiya, though that seems like a hollow victory at best) but hey, we're also from different worlds. Some of us have read the source material.

“Even so, you -”

As Saber was about to speak her thoughts, she suddenly found that her own voice was lower and calmer than she thought it would be. She had just realized that her complicated emotions towards Kiritsugu was no longer her previous anger but had to changed to some kind of pity.

That's right; maybe he is a man that should be pitied.

Isn't he himself that needed salvation, not this world?

“-Emiya Kiritsugu, I don't know what kind of betrayal you were subjected to in the past and why you despaired. But that rage, that lament, are undoubtedly things that those who pursued justice possesses. Kiritsugu, in your youth you should have wanted to be 'a hero of justice'. You should have believed in and wanted to become a hero who saves the world more than anyone else – isn't that so?”

Until now, the only attitudes Kiritsugu had shown to Saber were complete ignorance and cold scorn. But now, Kiritsugu, having heard Saber's quiet questioning – the eyes that he fixed on his Servant showed other emotions for the first time.

It was a rage seemingly close to boiling over.

>>44680
>some of us have read the source material
Gonna play the arrogance card here, huh~? "I know more than you do so my opinion is better than you." No, that's not what you said, but you're certainly implying it~

The exposition, the antecedent action, all that stuff--that's all well and good. But ultimately, when you tell a story, it's not about that stuff~ That's scenery, that's setting, that's background information. I judge Kiritsugu mostly based on what we see him do within the story, not what they talk about he has done in the past.

Also, pulling the "he was from a different background than you HOW DARE YOU JUDGE HIM" card was really, really lame~ He's not a person, you know. He's a character in a story. I'm allowed to have such opinions of him, based on his role and actions in the story~ You don't judge what someone is doing as "right" or "wrong" based on their harsh past--at most, it's an excuse. You can say "well it's wrong, but it's entirely reasonable to see how he could be misguided in that matter." But that does not make it right.

Similarly, I would argue that this isn't Saber's story. The story of King Arthur ended in the ages past. She left her mark on history and is hailed as a hero. Kiritsugu will do no such thing.

>>44682
And before we get TOO off-track, let me add that I'm not trying to just dismiss all of Kiritsugu's past actions. But, again, ultimately--the story is about what he does in the Grail War to achieve his goal of saving the world. It is THESE actions that (within the story) fail to grant him his wish, not his past actions.

What he may have done in the past to protect others may be worth something. However, within the context of the story of F/Z and FS/N, it matters very little.

>>44682
It was in response to your tildes.

First: it's important to understand where he comes from so that you can understand the decisions he makes. And in line with his experiences and beliefs, yes, I think he does an admirable job.

And for the record? No, I don't think it was wrong. Fuck Kayneth. I do feel bad for Lancer, but I'm used to Lancers stabbing themselves by now.

And hey, I hail him as a hero. There's nothing wrong with a character that is willing to get his hands dirty while other people play knights as long as he's getting shit done. And guess who got shit done?

It's fine if you don't like his actions. I'm only trying to stand up for him a little because Saberfags seem to look down on him, and I think he deserves much better than that. Yes, he's a character, but he's a character I like.

I am not sold on his actions being the reason his wish doesn't come true, though. The Grail being corrupted by the Einzberns has been a thing since the third war and no, the reason it's already corrupted is not to cockblock him from getting his wish, it's because it was written that way in F/SN. But that's really just splitting hairs - I don't think it's really a story about saying "no kids, the ends don't justify the means." If it saves ten people it saves ten people, I think it's arrogant to discriminate against results because you don't like the methods.

I don't want to spend the entire night talking about it, so I'll leave it at that. You can leave your final thoughts if you want, it would be rude to deny you that.

>>44684
Oh, so you're "granting" me the privilege of leaving my final thoughts, huh~? Wahaha~

Look, what exactly is Kiritsugu "getting done?" He fails. In the story, he fails. He does not achieve his goal, and he loses basically everything he had in the process. We're told he "gets stuff done" IN THE PAST, but again, that's outside the story. Not within it. It's rather irrelevant to the theme or "moral" of the story.

You'll notice I never stood up for Kayneth, or anything like that. The guy had much cooler powers that Kiritsugu, but he was still a jerk~ And heck, I can't even try to claim Kiritsugu is a complete monster, if he was one of those he wouldn't have bothered making sure the building was evacuated before he bombed it.

However~! I do despise his arrogance at looking down his nose at people like Saber and Lancer, and the way he insinuates that a belief in "honor" causes war and suffering (I think this is confusing correlation with causation and is a rather common mistake). He's definitely not any better than them, despite how much he likes to think he is. And yes, I think the way he handled the Kayneth situation was probably more sadistic than it needed to be.

He seems to think his way is better. But it's really, really not. I have a fundamental disagreement there. Kiritsugu's way will always bring more pain than it brings good, no matter how much he deludes himself to believe otherwise. That is what happened in F/Z, and that's why I say it's the point of the story. The ending, the salvation of Shirou, is the redemption. It shows that he can achieve good, if he tries.

A real hero conducts his or herself in such a manner that inspires goodness in those around him or her. The tales of heroes are supposed to uplift us, make us feel good. And in my book, Kiritsugu is a lot closer to a "misguided villain" than a hero. He's basically a Redcloak.

And even as far as villains go, I prefer the Xykons~

>>44686

So, maybe understood wrong what happen in the end of Fate Zero, isn't the grail supposed to be "fake" as well there?

>>44685

Kiritsugu is saying that it's hypocrisy to kill people 'honorably' while saying that other ways of killing are evil. As people see honor as desirable, partially as the result of admiring heroes that have it, they participate in wars in order to obtain it, which leads to a large number of deaths (this is where the causation comes into play). Since killing is the worst, it's nonsense to accept killing because it was done with honor.

As far as getting things done, his actions are correct based on the information he's been given. It's impossible to know about the grail's corruption, so doing whatever he can to win the war with a 0% chance of failure is the right course of action, For instance, Kayneth making a contract with a new servant and somehow beating him would be the same as letting everyone he could save with the grail die. It'd be even worse if he lost to someone with an evil wish as well.

On the matter of him being a hero, he is, naturally. He sacrifices his feelings for the sake of saving the world, so he should at least meet the minimum requirement. His actions during the grail war aren't really things that people can object to, either. So far in the anime he's, what, sniped one evil master, killed a master who came back after he took him out of the war nonfatally, killed that master's wife who was obsessed with making Diarmuid win, and stopped a fight between apparitions that wouldn't even have memory of it afterwards (although Saber is an exception). Even if he appeared to have done it cruelly, he hasn't done anything out-of-bounds in the war so far.

>>44688

The grail is real, it's just really mean.

>>44689
Then don't kill them; arrest them.

http://www.batoto.net/read/_/97603/boku-to-senpai-no-manken-katsudou-roku_by_hachimitsu-scans/18

>>44691
No that was just me being annoyed and using my USB internet.

>>44690

Arrest who.

>>44693
Them. The they.

On another note, poor Sakura and poor Berserker's master, etc

>>44694

The who.

>>44696
No, not The Who.

>>44697

The whom

>>44698
Who?

>>44699

dare da

http://boards.4chan.org/vp/res/9202548

>>44701

Pokemon has traditionally been blessed with good songs ne.

>>44689
I don't think you read what I posted very well~

>>44692
It's not like I didn't know it was you~

>>44689
>"Because you can't call yourself a good guy and then do bad guy things."

>>44703

You said that honor causing war was correlation instead of causation, so I was explaining the case for the opposite. You also said his actions were misguided, but considering how important his objective is they're entirely justifiable and the best course of action. Moreover, you called him a misguided villain even though he's done nothing villainous and is acting to prevent all future wars.

>>44704

What bad guy things.

>>44705
"Normal" for something like that doesn't make it "okay", "good", "moral", or "ethical". For example, just because the other kids are doing drugs doesn't make it okay for you to join them, does it?

>>44706
Why not just subdue them?

>>44707

In that case, you'd have to argue that there are no good guys in any battle. For instance, killing Ryuunosuke and Caster, who had been torturing and murdering children, to prevent them from continuing wouldn't be considered a good act. It's impossible to confine a heroic spirit, so the only way to stop them is to kill them. Would it be more ethical to do nothing and let them continue to kill innocent people?

>>44708

Subdue how.

>>44710
Pretty sure there was another way mentioned at some point to banish a spirit or somesuch thing.
>>44712
What about burning out the mana circuits?

>>44713

The only way to beat a servant is to kill it. Kayneth's magic circuits were entirely broken and he still continued to fight in the grail war.

>>44714
Well that's just silly and arbitrary.

>>44716

There's no Rule Breaker here. I supposed that would be the exception if it were applicable ne.

>>44717
Right, different Caster this time. My mistake.

>>44718

That's still a method of restraint, and moreover wouldn't work either.

>>44720
Don't they have to sleep?

>>44705
Heroes don't sink to the level of their enemies, and I think Kiritsugu acted cruelly to his enemies and callously to his allies. I do think he is particularly villainous~

Also, people fight for a lot of reasons, and I don't think honor is high on the list. He's just looking for a convenient scapegoat to excuse hating on people with different methods~ I see this a lot~

Oh, and the ends don't justify the means~