No. 3

Alright, two questions.

Do we actually plan on going with the "shannon is Nanjo's granddaughter" part? The theory can work without it, I think, but regardless. The same goes for Nanjo as Amakusa.

Bern, were you actually serious about using Natsuhi as an accomplice, or are we saying that Nanjo acted alone?

No. 4

>>3
Shannon provides a motive. Natsuhi was probably an example of suspicious people.

No. 5

>>3
For Nanjo to be the culprit I think he needs an accomplice, for the 3rd twilight.

No. 6

Shannon is a good accomplice. Also you best add a "checkmate!" at the end~

No. 7

Shannon is a good accomplice. Also you best add a "checkmate!" at the end~

No. 8

I am not a culprit.

No. 9

Actually it was me~

No. 10

>>9
Trolled. Not cool. We thought it was Kinjo.

No. 11

>>10

No. 12

What the...

No. 13

>>12
Please say you are a troll...

No. 14

>>8
Of course you aren't Genji, a servant cannot be the culprit.

>>4
Well, we want to be as specific as possible, so if we are using an accomplice, I need to know who it should be. Personally though, I really don't see the need for one, it seems like all of the murders could have been done alone.

>>5
Does he need one though, Wasn't the third twilight done by trap? Or am I remembering things wrong?

>>6
Shannon? Sure she provides a nice motive, but I don't think Nanjo would want to involve her if she really is his granddaughter; and besides that, wouldn't it make the whole proving Yasu innocent thing a bit pointless?

No. 15

>>13
Sure. I'm a troll.

No. 16

>>14
It must either be a trap, or someone in the parlor placed it, for even if you don't leave the parlor when Rudolf and Kyrie die, the letter still appears and no one new comes in.

No. 17

So, while I've been typing things up, I've been thinking about this, and a few things don't really fit together after all.

For one, if he really was disguising himself to appear overweight, why? And more importantly, wouldn't Genji or Krauss, who lived on the island with him and knew what he really looked like, say something once they saw his corpse? Hmm.

>>16
Ah right the letter, I forgot. Who would be your accomplice then, Krauss? Shannon?

No. 18

>>17
I've been thinking and re-reading. It seems that is might be possible that the characters are close each person on part. (Certain people) One of the reasons given for Kinzo's buring by someone, was that they didn't like him.

It could be possible that Nanjo didn't actually like Kinzo, or rather he also loved Beatrice so he was jealous.

If he was premitating the murder for years and years then pretending to gain wait would help a lot. If it was planned shortly after Beato's death it wouldn't be that hard to image him possiblty trickign everyone.

Krauss and Rosa I think are the most suspisous. Rosa points out the letter, and suggest Erika is the one who placed it. And if you search the parlor you find one of her magizines could that have been used as part of the trick. And she also allows Maria to go in by herself. And it is possible the door isn't actaully locked only Rosa tries it.

And Krauss brings everyone up to the study where traps and the culprit has access.

No. 19

Also it is interesting to note, why do the 1st twilight corpses dissapear late in the story (Before you head to the servants room.)

No. 20

>>18
Do you mean just murdering Kinzo, or the entire family. If you mean the former, he had more than enough access, I guess I don't really see how pretending to put on weight would help his cause. If you mean the whole family, then it would make sense, but then the money motive would be out the door, considering he wouldn't have been in trouble until Krauss revealed he was going to divide the inheritance in the way that he did.

What you say about Krauss and Rosa are good points, but without our main culprit, we have nothing, and I'm finding more and more flaws by the second. For example, if Yasu is the daughter of Kuwadorian beato/nanjo, why say granddaughter and not just daughter? He has no reason to lie, considering nobody knows who this supposed granddaughter actually is.

Anyway, we do have three days, so i'm thinking it might be wise at this point not to rush into things and see what other people, like Ange. I'd hate to waste a guess on a theory with plenty of holes left in it. What does everyone else think?

No. 21

>>20
It could he both hated, and cared for Kinzo like friend. So he couldn't actually kill Kinzo, but burning the body is possible. Also I found it interesting I went shot when I went to the guesthouse after the study part. I went into the archive room and there was the culprit.

No. 22

An issue with Krauss being an accomplice: If Krauss, who made the decision of how to divide up Kinzo's money, was willing to go so far as to help the doc kill his own family, why not instead just give him a piece of the inheritance? It'd be faster, and a lot less messy.

No. 23

Alright, I'll refrain from actually posting anything until we either disprove this theory, or work out the kinks it has. As of right now, I think it just has too many problems for us to use up a guess on it. I have the post mostly written and saved, so if we do decide to go with it later, i'll have everything ready. We have enough time, so let's wait, hear some other opinions, and finalize the theory a bit more; no sense in rushing headfirst into something we aren't sure about.

No. 24

Are we moving to Nanjo as a main culprit now?

I admit, I see the most motive for him, and he seems cool and calmly rational in the flashback sequence.

No. 26

Whoever the culprit is they want the gold or don't want anyway to get it. (After scene in Study with Maria's death) They go over to the guest house and into the libray. I entered that room and "Bam" I was dead.

No. 27

>>24
Basically, whilst in a stream earlier, we had a short of group-epiphany. Rosa proposed the idea that Nanjo was actually the culprit, and we pieced things together from there.

To heavily summarize things, the idea is that in this fragment, Nanjo remained thin throughout his life, much as he was in the flashbacks. He is disguising himself as being overweight.(though we aren't really sure why, which is one of the main problems with this idea) His motive is his granddaughter, whom we theorized may actually be Sayo("mental illness"). Once the siblings decided to split the money, he realized he probably wouldn't be getting any and so resorted to murder. As a medical professional, he'd be able to fake his death easily, and because of his access to the mansion/study, he'd be able to both set up the traps and easily access the poisonous compound that killed Rudolph and Kyrie.

Some problems I've encountered with this theory are:
-Why would he be faking obesity?
-The daughter/granddaughter issue I mentioned in post 20.
-Is there an accomplice, and if so, who? If not, how was the letter placed for the third twilight? If so, it seems like it has to be either Krauss, Rosa, or Genji. I've already brought up the issue with Krauss. If it's Rosa or Genji, why would they cooperate with him, and why does he kill them later?

We were going to have me write up a nice dramatic guess post, but until these issues are taken care of, actually posting it seemed ill-advised. I also wanted to hear other peoples' opinions, like yours, on the matter. Aside from the wrinkles listed above though, this seems like a pretty good theory, and we definitely wouldn't put it past Kinjo to make himself an overpowered, bishounen culprit for his grand finale. Any thoughts or ideas you can provide would be most helpful.

Also of note is the fact that in secret, Kinjo seems unwilling to directly deny my blue(bold) regarding VD12. If Nanjo is the sole culprit, this is unimportant, but I think it's worth keeping in mind.

No. 28

>>27
This isn't Kinjo's last ep. I asked if this one was the last and he told me 'no.'

No. 29

>>27
Can you elaborate what the being thin vs. being overweight has to do with anything?

No. 30

Being thinner, he could utilize secret passageways and climb walls.

No. 31

>>20
Perhaps, after Natsuhi abandoned Yasu at the cliff, Nanjo decided to adopt Yasu as his granddaughter.

No. 32

>>31
A maybe he hates Natsuhi for doing that. Would explain the "Yasu, Praise my name"

No. 33

>>29
Ah yes, I do apologize for that rather unorganized post earlier. I really need to make it a rule not to post anything important after 2AM.

That said though, the significance pretty much boils down to this
>>30

Without this inclusion, ridiculous as it may seem, we really have no logical explanation for Maria's death. In his usual state, I can't see any way Nanjo could possibly have climbed up to the ledge in order to kill her, especially in the pouring rain. If it turns out she was somehow killed by a trap, or something of a similar nature, then we can discard this part of the theory, but as of right now, i'm not finding any evidence that would point to that being the case. It did cross my mind that perhaps Maria never actually died, but to the best of my knowledge, I seem to recall Erika being able to sever Maria's head from her body at some point. Ordinarily, I'll admit I would have dismissed the idea of Nanjo disguising himself in this way as being far too audacious, especially if there existed no clues to indicate that it might be plausible, but let us remember that Kinjo did use the WDK sprites to represent him in this game, so it's not as if we can say there's zero precedent for it.

>>31
Wow, i'm honestly not sure why I didn't think of this earlier. I'd say this is far more likely than the Nanjo/Kuwadorian theory and it definitely takes care of the daughter issue.

No. 34

Not that I want to deny the theory, but does Nanjo son mention his ill daugther in episode 4?

No. 35

>>34
This is Kinjo's Kakera he doesn't have to make it so all the info is the same. And we have to remember this kakera has only a 1 in quadrillon chance of happening.

No. 36

>>34
Yes, but it's not really related to this one, is it?

No. 37

>>35
Yeah, I wouldn't past it over Kinjo.

No. 38

I see that you guys were thinking about Nanjo as well. In a other topic, have we come to a conclusion on the whole Battler and Ange's dyed hair thing?

No. 39

>>38
Is even posible to dye someone hair permanently? I mean there's something wrong with it. It could be a trap?

No. 40

>>39
No. I asked him about while I was playing. He only respond with, "Ange brings up a contradiction". Yet all Ange said was, "-then was is my hair also dyed?"

So I'm assuming that he wants us to think about it.

No. 41

>>40
The contradiction is simple.
Rudolf is saying they dyed Ange hair, but her hair have been never dyed.
So, it's posible to lie to Erika even when she used the theathergoing stuff? Or is posible because he is talking to Kyrie?

No. 42

>>41
Well that may be the case, but even if it isn't I'd just like to point out that it wasn't Ange's hair they were talking about, it was Battler's.

Thus Ange asked the question "-then was is my hair red?"

Seems like there could, just maybe, be something to do with the culprit.

No. 43

I'm pretty sure the contradiction goes like this.

In Ange's head

Battler's hair = red

My hair = red

Battler hair's was dyed = My hair must have been dyed.

Sounds sort of like she is using Hempel's raven to me. But it is a contradiction, for it is illogical. Because we are told.

Battler's hair was dyed to hide the fact he was born from Asumu.

They would have no reason to do this for Ange.

The statement becomes illogical and creates an inconsistency, or its synonym 'contradiction.'

There is one simply answer to this.

Rudolf lyed about the reason Battler has red hair. Which can mean that Erika can be lied to. However that doesn't shock me from seeing Jessica's flashback. That as well is a little illogical.

There is one more answer to this question, but it is too crazy. It would mean that, both Ange and Battler would have to been born from 'not' Kyrie. Which makes little sense.

No. 44

>>38
Agh! To be honest, I had completely forgotten about the hairdye problem. As for whether or not it bears any relevance toward unveiling the culprit, I don't know; it could just be what Anon-kun said, that it serves the purpose of showing us people are capable of lying even when under the influence of the theatergoing authority.

That aside though, I think it would be advantageous at this point for us to finalize our theory and reach some sort of a consensus as to what it is that we wish to use for our first guess. As far as remaining issues with the Nanjo culprit theory go, I'm still highly unsure as to who would be his accomplice if he had one, and why.

Perhaps if everyone simply went through and listed off who they believe is the culprit, what their motive is, their choice of accomplice(if any), a brief summation of how they believe the twilights were done, and any other information they feel is important, it'd assist us in arriving at a singular conclusion.

To me, the current state of things looks something like this:

Culprit: Nanjo
Motive: Money/Sick Granddaughter (sayo)
Accomplice: None
Howdunnit: Nanjo is faking obesity. He kills the shed victims and fakes his own death. The second twilight is done remotely by a poison trap. The third twilight letter is placed by Maria, perhaps under the suggestion that he is possessed by Beatrice. He burns Kinzo's body while Erika is interrogating everyone. Hideyoshi is killed by a gun-themed trap, and Maria is killed through the use of the secret passageway.
Rosa and Genji are killed when they leave to patch up her wounds, and Krauss is killed trying to protect Erika. In killing Krauss, Nanjo unintentionally frames his own adopted granddaughter.
Remaining problems: Why is Nanjo faking his weight? We have conjecture, but no real clues that point to anything definitive.


If we all end up agreeing on a single theory similar to this one, I still have the post I wrote two nights ago, so I can modify and post that if everyone wishes. Otherwise,w e can nominate someone else to present our conclusion, either way is fine with me. I just want to make sure everyone is relatively on the same page at this point, because our time is growing shorter by the minute. If we don't decide on anything, or if no further progress is made by the deadline, I'll just go ahead and post the theory as it currently stands when time is up. Even if it's wrong, we should definitely be able to get some good info out of Kinjo with it.

No. 45

Here is another one, if they have an accomplice, why do they kill them. Also here is an interesting piece I found, dispite if you have both Kinzo's study keys, Kinzo's body vanishes sometime while Erika is in the palor. If you check in the morning, his body is in the bed, if you rush out right after the letter appears, the body is gone. So therefore if anyone in the parlor is the culprit they must have an accomplice that burned the body. An accomplice that faked their death in the first twilight. Only Shannon & or Erika leave when Rudolf and Kyrie are killed. And it seems like no one leaves the palor until Kinzo's body is discovered.

Anyway, my thoughts.

Culprit: Nanjo
Motive: Money/Sick Granddaughter (sayo)
Accomplice: Rosa
Why he kills her: She goes into a rage at him killing Maria and is going to reveal him.
Howdunnit: Nanjo is faking obesity. He kills the shed victims and fakes his own death. The second twilight is done remotely by a poison trap. The third twilight letter is placed by Rosa. He created a third key to Kinzo's study and used it to get inside so he could burn Kinzo's body while Erika is interrogating everyone. Hideyoshi is killed by a gun-themed trap, and Maria is killed through the use of the secret passageway.
Rosa and Genji are killed when they leave to patch up her wounds, and Krauss is killed trying to protect Erika.

Culprit: Natsuhi
Motive: Hatred against the family, Nanjo and Shannon aka Yasu.
Accomplice: Krauss
Why she kills him: Natsuhi actually resents him like she hates Kinzo, for crushing her family.
Howdunnit: She creates an extra shed key and uses it to kills the shed victims and fake her own death. The second twilight is done remotely by a poison trap. The third twilight letter is placed by Krauss. She makes an extra study key so she can burn Kinzo's body while Erika is interrogating everyone. Hideyoshi is killed by a gun-themed trap, and Maria is killed through the use of the secret passageway.
Rosa and Genji are killed when they leave to patch up her wounds, and Krauss is killed when an act to make it seem like Krauss = hero, not accomplice goes wrong, and she kills him when she sees a chance to blame it on Shannon.

An extra shed and study key would answer the problems that occur when Erika gets those keys before the murders/burning.

No. 46

Maria defend Erika when she was being acused, so that's probably enough for a hint of her putting the letter.

No. 47

Nanjo hides weapons in his gut.

No. 48

Hmm well I may whip up a completely different culprit but for now.

I have a feeling that Shannon didn't shoot because she was too shocked to shoot.

Just pointing that out for some consideration, even thought if she saw a dead person it could work too.

No. 49

>>47
Hard to tell if you're being sarcastic.

No. 50

Hey Genji, so shall we go with it? It's the five already.

No. 51

>>50
Well, Kinjo did say we have until tomorrow, so we at do have at least a bit of time left. I'm currently writing the post now, so if there are no objections, I'll post it here later tonight for everyone to look over and approve. I just want to make absolutely certain everyone's in agreement before I go about doing anything official.

From the sound of things, I assume you're on board with the Nanjo theory, then?

No. 52

>>51
Yes, I'm Genji. I'm a bit unsure but it's the best we have. Even if there's something wrong with the theory Nanjo seems quite guilty now.

No. 55

I've been wondering if it's necessary to provide anything for the third twilight. One of the Dine rules says something to the effect of "no murder, no mystery." Though I notice Kinjo has changed the wording on that one slightly. In any case, that one seems to be a real guessing game to me.