>>21247

Mmm, only a half win. But I'm not finished either! I had already planned this next move!

Krauss and Natsuhi couldn't have killed Rosa but Rosa could have killed Krauss and Natsuhi! Krauss was murdered outside Natsuhi's room, but Natsuhi managed to barricade herself inside. Rosa went outside and shot Natsuhi through the window!

Last edited at 18/09/07(Fri)17:27:09

>>21248

Hahaha! Not so confident now? This could perhaps be my most dastardly move so far. Are you ready to play, Dionysios!??

Rosa did not murder Krauss or Natsuhi!
No one shot through the window!

Hahaha I'll enjoy seeing you struggle through this one.

Last edited at 18/09/07(Fri)17:32:20

>>21249

Should I have gone with the simpler theory then?

Natsuhi killed Krauss then commited suicide.

The most simple explanation for a closed room murder may just be the correct one.

>>21250
Natsuhi didn't commit suicide!

>>21251

But she did kill Krauss, no? Maybe they had a fight and she died from her wounds after locking the door from the inside.

Though I really think I'm grasping at straws here. I underestimated you. I shouldn't have.

>>21252
Neither Natsuhi or Krauss had any wounds...
Because Natsuhi and Krauss drowned

Wha-? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? They drowned? How? How did that even happen? And where? How? When? Where? How? What??????????

>>21254

They were obstacles in the revival of the Golden Witch!

So I drowned them. Drowned them in an ocean not water but jelly! They choked and begged me for mercy, but what mercy does predator offer it's prey?

How could they have drowned if not for my magic? It's impossible! Why don't you just give up!? Ahahah!

Last edited at 18/09/07(Fri)18:08:18

>>21255
Hideyoshi killed Natsuhi and Krauss. They drowned on snow. The window was locked from outside since it was broken.

>>21256
Hideyoshi didn't kill Natsuhi or Krauus
Natsuhi and Krauss didn't drown on snow
At the time of Krauss and Natsuhi's death, the window wasn't broken.
Nor did the culprit break the window in an effort to escape!

>>21257
Kinzo did then, he is missing and alive after all. They were knocked out and drowned in a bathtub or sink. The room was constructed after, hence the window still being intact during their deaths.

Last edited at 18/09/07(Fri)18:48:46

>>21258
Kinzo did not kill Natsuhi and Krauss
Natsuhi and Krauss were conscious before and whilst they were drowning, up until the lack of oxygen made them pass out
Natsuhi died in her room! Krauss died right outside it! Their bodies were not moved after they died!

Last edited at 18/09/07(Fri)18:56:22

>>21259
Oh? Now this is getting weird.

Secondary drowning. Natsuhi and Krauss fell by accident or were forced underwater. Either way they passed out and someone put the bodies where they were found. Only then did they died from the lack of oxygen.

Last edited at 18/09/07(Fri)19:22:55

>>21260
Natsuhi and Krauss started to drown exactly where they were found, and finished drowning exactly where they were found, and never left those spots the entire time!
Natsuhi and Krauss's bodies weren't moved! Whether Alive or Dead, Conscious or Unconscious, Natsuhi and Krauss's bodies were not moved by anyone else!
Natsuhi and Krauss weren't forced underwater

>>21262

Could it be your choice of words again? You said that Eva, Hideyoshi and Kinzo did not 'kill' Krauss or Natsuhi, but that Rosa did not 'murder' them.

>>21264
Just a little red herring

Not that these deaths needed one, hehehe
Rosa did not kill Natsuhi and Krauss

>>21265
The mansion/room was flooded and the window broke from the water.

If not can we get a definition for what it means to drowned?

>>21266
The mansion didn't flood with water
Drowning is defined as dying from lungs filled with fluid preventing acquisition of oxygen thus causing death

>>21267
Of course, only the lungs.

Natsuhi and Krauss got way too drunk and eventually they threw up and choked on their own vomit.

Similarly, They drank something that just happened to go down the wrong pipe and choked to death by accident.

Or, probably the easiest answer, Natsuhi and Krauss were wounded in a different way, but only died from drowning on their own bodily fluids.

>>21268
Natsuhi and Krauss didn't choke on vomit
nor did they die from drinking something... infact No fluid passed their lips at all
Natsuhi and Krauss had no wounds

I cannot deny that they didn't drown on bodily fluids... I mean, surely with any amount of fluid in the lungs, at least some of it would be bodily fluids, right? there's no way I can deny it.

Last edited at 18/09/08(Sat)16:52:18

>>21269
So in other words if they drowned on their bodily fluids without any wounds it would be fine.

They had an allergic reaction or contracted something like pneumonia. Either way this could cause their lungs to be filled and thus drowned by definition.

>>21270
Neither of them had an allergic reaction or pneumonia. Neither of them had any pre-existing condition of the lungs!
I wonder where Jessica gets it from?

>>21271

What if their lungs filled with bodily fluids because they choked on something solid? Like, say, an areca nut? Would that count as 'drowning'?

Last edited at 18/09/09(Sun)19:47:40

>>21272

If it was the fluid preventing respiration then yes...

Although

No solid substance passed their lips either
Nor did any fluid or solid go up their noses

Last edited at 18/09/10(Mon)04:54:05

>>21273

Natsuhi and Krauss were exposed to some form of deadly gas. This gas damaged their lungs and caused them to fill with fluid, causing asphyxiation, or 'drowning.' Some possible examples would be nitrogen dioxide, or maybe phosgene. At any rate, they were exposed in Natsuhi's room. Krauss managed to stumble out, but Natsuhi knocked the door shut on her own run out. They then both died.

The window was broken to allow the gas to vent out in the subsequent hours.

The door was not actually locked when George went to open it.

How's that, witch?

>>21274
Ah- erm, Bravo! Natsuhi and Krauss both died due to exposure to such a gas

Although
Krauss's death was not an accident
The door truly was locked when Battler's group got there

Last edited at 18/09/11(Tue)03:36:49

Probably also a good point to introduce the next twilight.

After leaving Natsuhi's room Battler's group goes to Kinzo's study.
Before knocking on the door, Kinzo, with his mouth slightly bleeding, emerges from the room! He laughs maniacally before asking how the ritual is progressing. He then says he doesn't want to know, calls everyone a load of blasted incompetent fools and storms off
Battler's group stand dumbstruck for about a minute, and then go down the stairs where Kinzo went.

Heh, I wouldn't put it past Grandpa

At the bottom of the stairs Battler's group sees Kinzo kneeling in closely front of the portrait of Beatrice. Shouting "WHY BEATRICE, WHY MUST MY LOVE GO UNREQUITED. WHY HAS THIS DEVIL'S ROULETTE CHOSEN ME! OH DESIRE!" before vomiting profuse amounts of blood from the mouth and dying.
Battler screams before eating his final Master Key. Maria begins to laugh like a witch creeping everyone out, especially Battler.
Battler runs to the Kitchen followed by Kyrie. There he eats a couple of teaspoons and an assortment of Napkins, as well as a potted plant.

Oh and for clarity's sake
Before Battler and Kyrie went to the kitchen, "Battler's group" consisted of Battler, George, Rudolf, Kyrie, Eva, Jessica and Maria

Last edited at 18/09/11(Tue)03:56:20

>>21277

It's a well known fact that Battler takes after Kinzo in a lot of ways.Kinzo, just like his grandson, has an impulsive need to eat cutlery and other such small objects. While eating a knife, he was somewhat careless and the knife cut the inside of his oesophagus. That's why he was bleeding from the mouth. Then, while he was yelling like a maniac, the knife also cut the inside of his stomach. That's why he vomited blood.

This is the truth! Kinzo died eating a knife!

Alternatively, he was poisoned. But that's booooring.

Last edited at 18/09/11(Tue)04:56:30

>>21279
Kinzo does indeed have an impulsive need to eat small inedible objects.
Kinzo was poisoned

Although

He wasn't bleeding from the mouth due to a ripped oesophagus

I poisoned him, I appeared right before him and spat poison from my vile tongue into his mouth using black magic.

>>21280

Wait, wait- he does? Haha, and here I thought that was funny so I said it on a whim! It would have been even funnier if he actually died from that though.

So, you admit to having a vile, venomous tongue? Even more proof you're just Eva.

Okay, enough chit-chat! Kinzo was bleeding because, just like his idiot grandson, this idiot chipped his tooth on whatever he was eating. He was poisoned by Eva, who is eager to succeed him immediately!

>>21281
Hehehe

Eva did not kill Kinzo

So how can I be Eva? I'm the black witch! Ahaha!

Last edited at 18/09/11(Tue)05:25:14

>>21282

Does food poisoning count? Maybe he died because of all the inedible things he ate.

>>21283
Nope.

Dying due to eating mundane inanimate objects counts as being killed by those objects and not being as poisoned.

Last edited at 18/09/11(Tue)05:49:52

>>21284

Yes, just as I expected. Better to get that out of the way first though.

He was poisoned by someone who knew of his condition. That certain someone put poison in the objects Kinzo would eat.

>>21285

The culprit didn't know of Kinzo's condition.

>>21286

Kinzo poisoned himself by ingesting a poisonous substance (say, some form of bathroom cleaner since he probably wanted to check his chipped tooth). Both he and Battler's conditions are completely subconscious, and no one dared to tell Kinzo about his.

Oh, and the potted plant Battler ate was tiny, compared to many potted plants.

>>21288

Kinzo was murdered! His death was not an accident!

I figured the potted plant is like one of those small ones you'd had in a windowsill so I guess that blue is valid.

>>21289

Very well then. If the culprit didn't know of Kinzo's condition, they could probably not have trusted him to eat something laid out to be poison. Still, there's plenty of things that Kinzo could be expected to do...

The poison was placed near, on, or behind the portrait of Beatrice. When touched or inhaled, it kills. For extra points, the culprit could have made a pressure-sensitive mechanism to release the poison, triggered by Kinzo's knees hitting the floor just in front of the portrait.

>>21292

Yes. There was a layer of poison applied to the painting.

But you still don't know who put it there!

Last edited at 18/09/15(Sat)02:22:15

>>21293

Don't tell me it was Genji.

>>21295
Hahahaha! What an insane idea.


Genji died before the poison was placed on the painting.

So it couldn't have been him.

>>21296

So it was recent, then? Or maybe not so much.

Wait, are we talking about the portrait in the hall? I assumed the portrait with the poison was the one in his study.

Last edited at 18/09/15(Sat)10:46:28

>>21297

Ahahaha yes, that's interesting. There's two portraits isn't there? And yet neither the blue or the red specify which portrait.

Although
Kinzo has been in his study for the entire game so far.
Kinzo didn't poison the portrait himself.

Do you understand which portrait now?

>>21296

Here we go, witch:

Eva solved the riddle of the epitaph, and as such gained control of the servants, and became Beatrice (which allowed her to control Maria). She ordered the servants to kill themselves, and to hide the gun using the pulley method, so that she could retrieve it later. She also got Genji's assistance prior to that to unlock Natsuhi's room, so that she could place the gas device inside.

After the deaths in the VIP room were discovered, she secreted the gun out from the hiding place Genji had gotten it.

Around that time, Krauss and Natsuhi entered her room. Eva did not know for certain that they would be the first to enter, so that does not count as 'murdering them' specifically. In a way, they died by accident. Natsuhi pushed Krauss out in an effort to save him and locked the door so he couldn't get back in. She then ran to the window and smashed it to ventilate the room. However, she died before making it back to the door. Krauss died while trying to get back in to save his wife.

Eva asked Rosa to meet by the tree. She shot her, placed the stake, and walked backwards to cover her tracks.

She was in the parlor with Maria when Hideyoshi discovered them. They got into an argument, the gun went off (world's quietest gun), and he died. Maria went to get the stake to cover up the death and the parlor room key. They exited and locked the door.

Around here is where Eva applied poison to the painting in the hall, knowing that soon Kinzo would come out, and would be the only one reasonably likely to touch the painting.

>>21299

Good! Very good!

But not quite right.

Eva didn't order the deaths of the servants.
Eva didn't place the gas device, nor did she or any of the servants lock or unlock the door.
Krauss's death wasn't an accident. It was murder.
Eva didn't kill Kinzo. She didn't apply the poison to the painting.

Furthermore

If someone intends to kill someone else, but doesn't care who, the intent to kill is all that matters. It doesn't matter that they don't know their target and it still counts as murder.

>>21301

Hmm, that does make this more difficult. That doesn't come close to being impossible, though. After all, there's a creepy little imp to consider!

Maria, dedicated riddler that she is, solved the riddle of the epitaph, and as such gained control of the servants, and became Beatrice. She enlisted the help of Eva.

She ordered the servants to kill themselves, and to hide the gun using the pulley method, so that Eva could retrieve it later.

After the deaths in the VIP room were discovered, Eva secreted the gun out from the hiding place Genji had gotten it.

Around that time, Krauss and Natsuhi entered her room. The gas device had been placed in the room underneath Natsuhi's room, and the gas had floated up through the air vents. The room below was Rosa's and Maria's room. Natsuhi pushed Krauss out in an effort to save him and locked the door so he couldn't get back in. She then ran to the window and smashed it to ventilate the room. However, she died before making it back to the door. Krauss died while trying to get back in to save his wife.

Maria baited her mother out to the tree. Eva shot her, placed the stake, and walked backwards to cover her tracks, while Maria, with her smaller feet, simply stepped in the footsteps.

Eva was in the parlor with Maria when Hideyoshi discovered them. They got into an argument, the gun went off (world's quietest gun), and he died. Maria went to get the stake to cover up the death and the parlor room key. They exited and locked the door.

Around here is where Maria applied poison to the painting in the hall, knowing that soon Kinzo would come out, and would be the only one reasonably likely to touch the painting.

After all, none of the deaths require a great deal of physical strength!

>>21303

Ah yes.

Maria went to get the stake and parlour room key, during this time she applied poison to the painting.

Although...

The only person who solved the epitaph was Shannon, long before the game started.
Krauss was murdered, but Natsuhi wasn't
Objectively speaking, Maria has nothing to gain from the deaths. She did not plan them.

Next deaths!

Once Battler has had his fill, him and Kyrie go back to the entrance hall in front of the portrait. The only people left there are Eva and Maria. Eva is holding a short rifle and is wearing a sizable strap-bag she wasn't before. Eva tells Kyrie and Battler the rest of the group took Kinzo's key and went to hide in his study.
Eva asks where Kyrie and Battler went with a cruel smile on her face. Kyrie coolly replies they went to the bathroom together to keep each other safe. Kyrie then asks Battler to go upstairs to Kinzo's office while she talks to Eva.
Battler goes upstairs and knocks on the door to Kinzo's room, there's no answer. He then goes to the VIP room and retrieves Genji's key to Kinzo's office. Then, worrying about Kyrie, he goes back downstairs to see a door shut that wasn't before. He tries to open it and it's locked. Once more, Battler breaks the door.
Battler finds Kyrie dead, with a stake embedded in her knee and a circular wound in her head. He also finds Eva dead with a stake of purgatory embedded in her back.

Damn looks like the witch killed your favourite culprit! I'll give you this for free.

Maria did not kill Kyrie or Eva

Last edited at 18/09/19(Wed)09:40:38

>>21306

Perhaps Natsuhi intended to kill Krauss but not die herself. Therefore, she did not commit suicide, but accidentally killed herself.

As for the parlor scene, Kyrie attacked Eva from behind with one of the stakes. Eva turned around and killed Kyrie with the gun, but later died from her wound.

>>21319

Hmph. Yes. Natsuhi died accidentally while trying to murder Krauss.

But still... When Kyrie sent Battler away, she had no intention of killing Eva.

Neither Kyrie nor Eva attacked anyone with a stake of purgatory.

Nor did Kyrie or Eva place the stakes of Purgatory in the wounds.

Hehehe, this one is particularly fiendish. Can you solve it? We'll see~

>>21320


Eva and Kyrie entered the room under some pretext that Eva invented. Eva shut the door to block the sound and shot Kyrie with the short rifle.

Taking a stake from the bag on her back, Eva jabbed it into Kyrie's knee. As Kyrie was already dead, this did not count as 'attacking'.

Eva slung the bag over her shoulder and stood up. Unfortunately for her, she slipped or otherwise lost her balance and fell back. A stake that was still in her back managed to land point-up and she impaled herself.